Monday, May 16, 2011

Inside a Man's Mind: Modesty, Part II

Taken from here. Part I of my fisk here.

In my last post I described how I went from being completely oblivious to the issue of modesty to completely awestruck with how significant of a principle it is. I was "awestruck" for a number of reasons.

QUOTATION MARKS ARE NOT DECORATIONS.

First of all, I wondered how I could have lived 21 years of my life without once considering whether or not there was a right and wrong when it came to dress.

No, you did not. I imagine you knew that some items of clothing are considered appropriate to some situations where others are not. Stop lying.

Secondly, I was amazed by the beauty of it all.

Can we say "fetish", children?

As you may recall, in my last post I recounted my first encounter with my future wife and her sister sitting across the room from me at a scripture study and what my initial reaction was to their appearance. In my ignorance, I could not conceive of any rational reason that would drive two young ladies to show up to a college scripture study in ankle length, floral pattern jumpers.

Neither can I. There are so many ways to be modest without resorting to something that hideous, if the Muslim women in my area are any guide.

Not only had I never seen anyone don such apparel,

or "wear jumpers"

I honestly didn't know if I ever cared to see it again - not because it was displeasing to my eye, but because it was displeasing to my heart. Why you ask?

I just assumed it was because jumpers are tragic.

Look, I went to Catholic schools growing up. I wore jumpers in blue plaid, jumpers in grey plaid, jumpers in brown plaid and jumpers in green plaid. They're horrid items of clothing, uncomfortable and unflattering. If there is a dress code in hell (assuming hell exists, of course) it involves jumpers.

Seeing them "set apart" in their dress made me uncomfortable - more uncomfortable that I cared to admit at the time. I was used to the short shorts, the tight tops, and the form fitting everything else. I had become much too well acquainted with this sort of revealing dress and if I would have been honest with myself, I would have confessed that it had done nothing but aid in the development of many of the vile affections that then abided in my heart.

Bitches always tempting me! I am a man, I should not be held responsible for my thoughts, feelings and actions, damnit!

Scanning the room that night, my eyes came into contact with something that absolutely shook the foundations of my pitiable understanding concerning the issue of dress.

I can just imagine that moment. Don't you feel like this is what happens when Tim Gunn sees the perfect dress made of garbage bags and dead sewer rats? ("This week, you'll be making a business suit using only broken dreams and empty promises.")

As it was, however, I quickly took shelter in counsel of my heart (not the safest place to be) and reemerged from this cellar like nothing had ever happened.

Dude, you know, I love me some clothes, but wtf is wrong with you? I've seen less overwrought descriptions of visions of Hell.

To be sure, I could not deny that there had been an earthquake, but it hadn't phased me. Strange that it even shook me at all. And so, I settled myself by allowing a single word to characterize what I had seen - weird. Case closed. Back to the real world.

It was strange that an earthquake shook you?

Fast forward almost a year later and I was to discover that this earthquake had aftershocks like you wouldn't believe. Passing through the room of this same scripture study, I spotted one of these young ladies (Caroline in this instance) sitting meekly in the corner and the words came to my mind so clearly, "That is the sort of woman you ought to marry."

Meek: Easily imposed on; submissive. Yeah, aren't you just a pleasant fellow.

I had come a looooong way - from "weird" to to wedlock. Now, what I would have you to understand is that I wasn't contemplating marriage on account of what Caroline was wearing, but how she wore it. Her clothing was modest, yes, but more importantly, she was modest. This was what I had but dimly apprehended at the first. My wife was not wearing jumpers because she liked them (she didn't and still does not)

That is so sad. I can understand having standards of dress. I can understand having difficulty finding clothes you like, or that fit or that you can afford. But to where clothes you hate when you could be wearing clothes that make you happy- it's like eating only cream of wheat and never anything with flavor, on purpose.

or because she believed them to be particularly fashionable (they passed out of vogue, oh, some 30 years ago), but because she felt that they were accessory to a modest spirit (that, and they were all her mother could sew at the time, it being very difficult to find anything in the department store agreeable to modest deportment.)

Couldn't she or her mother find another pattern, or visit another store? I see plenty of modestly dressed women during my day and not a one of them is dressed in a jumper. There's no reason for that other than to mark yourself out as being loudly modest.

Here follows a very long, very ignorant discourse on why jumpers are good, but hijab and plain are bad. If you can make heads or tails of it (other than "things I like are good, things I don't like are bad") please let me know.

Then comes this:

After meeting Caroline and her family, I was introduced to quite a few other ladies who were careful and considerate of their appearance - not too be revealing with the clothing they wore. Not all of them were modest. The one's that were the most modest in their dress were, in many instances, the least modest, if you follow me.

It's not enough to put on a jumper and assume you're good enough for me! You're going to have to work harder than that!

I could go on and on about why I think this is, but I shan't, for the Modest Mom says I should draw this post to a close.

When the meekly meekest meek woman tells you to shut the fuck up, you really need to shut the fuck up.

I hope you will not take my comments as license to dress like everyone else for they are in no way intended to encourage such a course, for although it is possible to be truly immodest while modestly dressed, it is impossible to be immodestly dressed and truly modest.

I think they may require some sort of chart to follow.

No, my post is intended to encourage the cultivation of a modest spirit and all that it implies - and yes, this process involves taking a good hard look at your standards of dress and adjusting them if necessary (whether you dress modestly or not).

So . . . if I'm dressing modestly, I need to adjust my manner of dress until I am modest? lolwut?

In the end, modest clothing does not the Modest Mom make, but they are an appendage unto her.

What kind of appendage? An arm, a leg, oooh! Is it a tail? Wing? Are wings appendages?

If it were merely modest clothing that adorned my wife when first I met her, I would have dismissed her taste in clothes as sadly misinformed by some obscure, puritanical interpretation of scripture. As it was, however, she wore a meek and quiet spirit which was, and is, of great price in the sight of God, and it had the blessed effect of drawing me nearer to my Savior.

Ugh. I would hope you found your wife special. You did marry her, after all.

26 comments:

  1. "Here follows a very long, very ignorant discourse on why jumpers are good, but hijab and plain are bad. If you can make heads or tails of it (other than "things I like are good, things I don't like are bad") please let me know."

    Nope, that's pretty much it. Apparently Muslims and Anabaptists wearing clothing to be set apart and not confused with worldlings is bad, whereas the kind of jumpers he likes tells the world that they are the "chosen ones" and set apart not to be confused with worldlings is good. Yeah, that makes perfect sense. Oh, and he apparently likes makeup, too.

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  2. There are so many ways to be modest without resorting to something that hideous, if the Muslim women in my area are any guide.

    On Friday night I was coming out of a tea shop in the heart of the Upper East Side, in the neighborhood where a lot of diplomats and their families live, work, and/or play. As I was walking out, what looked like two generations of sisters (that is, sisters and their daughters, all adults) walked into the tea shop wearing the most beautiful abayat I have ever seen. The fabric itself in each of them was so different, even though I imagine a lot of people would glance from a distance and assume they were seeing five of the same black drape things. (And this is to say nothing of their jewelry, their seriously classy headscarvces peeking out from under the abayat, they makeup done just so. Yessiree bob, it is indeed possible to be stylish as well as modest in the patriarchy's favorite sense.)

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  3. Oh, also, yesterday I went to the Alexander McQueen: Savage Beauty exhibit that's currently up at the Met.

    You want to talk about completely deconstructing your idea of clothing, guy? You go see that exhibit and then you talk to me. My head is still spinning.

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  4. There are some Indian women that live in my hometown. Their clothing is always absolutely gorgeous. They are typically covered from the neck down, but in some of the most beautiful, colorful fabrics I've ever seen. The jewelry they wear is to die for. Modestly dressed but always, always in style.

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  5. This is the creepiest thing I've read in a very, very long time.

    The guy is practically masturbating with one hand and typing with the other, while using all kinds of fundamentalist evangelical speak about his kink.

    Also I'm not sure that wearing really ugly clothes on purpose counts as modesty. Its really a mostly a way of saying "Look at me! Look at me! Look!! LOOKIE!! I AM SO DAMN MODEST!" which really isn't so much....

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  6. ...and if I would have been honest with myself, I would have confessed that it had done nothing but aid in the development of many of the vile affections that then abided in my heart.

    Okay, here's my thing. When I see someone (either man or woman) walking by in anything similar to what he describes in that passage, I usually have a passing thought of "that's a nice outfit" or "that person looks really good dressed like that."* And then I go back to the myriad other thoughts that were running through my head at the time. Or if I'm talking to the person, my mind moves back tot he conversation and stays there.

    This guy makes it sound like whenever he sees a woman in anything remotely revealing or form-fitting, he jumps into an unavoidable fantasy of wild sex with this woman. Is he really that out of control? Or is he so sexually repressed that he thinks having a simple passing appreciation for a nicely dressed woman makes him a horrible person?**

    Either way, I have to think it's an awful life to have to live.

    ----

    * Okay, I admit it. If it's a guy, I might also quickly think, "and he has a nice ass, too."

    ** Granted, based on what he wrote, I get the impression he's a Calvinist. And given that Calvinists have traditionally seen anything pleasurable as suspect, if not outright sinful, I wouldn't rule out the possibility.

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  7. I meant to say, too, that those Indian women are extremely friendly and very approachable.

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  8. "Or is he so sexually repressed that he thinks having a simple passing appreciation for a nicely dressed woman makes him a horrible person?**"

    I'm pretty sure that this is true of this guy. It seems as though he believes if he even notices the attractiveness of a person of the female persuasion that is a grievous sin. What a vile thought that is! Yet, to him, it is. Because of the biblical teachings he subscribes to probably darn near everything he thinks or does on a daily basis is a sin of some sort. Sad.

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  9. It's ironic (or, well, at least amusing) to me that after reading excerpts of this guy's thoughts on modesty, my one overwhelming reaction was this: "Get over yourself."

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  10. Oh my dear, sweet, tap-dancing Jesus. I do not understand people like this.
    I really, really don't.
    I just...
    What?
    No.
    No. no no no no no.
    There are no words.
    I live in the buckle of the Bible Belt, and I don't even encounter nuts like this. Hell, even one of my closest friends who is devoutly Christian and modest to a fault never dressed like this. I just don't even...
    ok, there is a word for this: lolwut?

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  11. Okay, I'm fairly sure this'll be an American/British English fail, but when I read 'jumper', I am thinking of a waist length warm over-garment, worn when it is cold or drizzling.
    So I was quite entertained by the thought of the oh-so-modest fundy girls wearing nothing from the waist down. Yes, I am warped.

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  12. @uzza: Not without getting arrested for indecent exposure.

    Guys can run around without shirts on and it's considered acceptable.* I've never heard someone complain that a guy's tee shirt is too tight or that his shorts aren't long enough.** Guys can pretty much wear whatever they want to and no one seems to say anything.

    ----

    * Can I just say I'm proud to live in a state where legally**, a woman is allowed to go shirtless anywhere a man is.

    ** Okay, the Christian day camp I used to work at as a teen did have the same standard of shorts length for both sexes.

    *** Unfortunately, that doesn't mean a woman who chooses to exercise that particular legal right won't catch flack for it.

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  13. I like debate and discourse, and contrary opinions, but sometimes things get so ridiculous that I might just resort to punching people in the face for being stupid.

    He wants a woman as weak as him, because he never got over puberty.

    Case closed. Done and done.

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  14. Okay, I'm fairly sure this'll be an American/British English fail, but when I read 'jumper', I am thinking of a waist length warm over-garment, worn when it is cold or drizzling.
    So I was quite entertained by the thought of the oh-so-modest fundy girls wearing nothing from the waist down. Yes, I am warped.


    I am not exactly normal in this regard*, but while I am very vaguely aware America has its own definition of "jumper", I have no idea what that meaning is. The only entries in my mental dictionary for "jumper" are "one who jumps" and as a British synonym for sweater. (I'm apparently not as warped as Slow Learner, though: I assumed they were also wearing long skirts.)

    *I lived in America for my first fourteen years or so, moved to Canada, and consume a lot of British entertainment. This has caused some odd hybrid-y things to happen to my understanding of English.

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  15. "Can men be immodest?"

    If they suspect them of being gay, yes. But other than that, no men do not get the level of scrutiny that women's clothes and bodies do.

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  16. Also:

    This is a jumper (in the American sense):http://www.school.assumption.org/OnCampus3.html

    It is a one piece, similar to overalls, except it is a skirt or occasionally skort*. Jumpers can be worn at any length, but it is most common to see them to at least the knee. Catholic schools often prefer them to skirts because it is impossible to roll** a jumper like a skirt.

    *Skort is something that looks like a skirt, but has shorts sewn underneath it. http://www.girlscoutshop.com/gsusaonline/Images/Primary/01060p.jpg

    ** "Rolling" is where you have your skirt at the required fingertip length for your school measurement, but then take the top and fold it under so that the skirt rests higher on your thighs.***

    ***Dress codes kind of remind me of the war on drugs. Mostly stupid, doesn't stop anything, and people are ALWAYS going to find a way around them.

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  17. Last post I swear :).

    There is a pretty significant Muslim population where I live, and they wear the most GORGEOUS headscarves. Is it cultural appropriation if I decide one day to wear one because I think it's pretty?

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  18. If they suspect them of being gay, yes. But other than that, no men do not get the level of scrutiny that women's clothes and bodies do.

    No, we're not immodest. We're "flaunting our sexuality."

    Granted, we're "flaunting our sexuality" if we hold hands with our partner while walking down the street. Go figure!

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  19. "...although it is possible to be truly immodest while modestly dressed, it is impossible to be immodestly dressed and truly modest. "
    "I think they may require some sort of chart to follow."

    Your wish is my command!

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  20. OK, first off, I suspect this guy was raised fundy, maybe backslid in college, but then went right back to it like a dog to his own vomit.

    Alternatively, he's "born again" (which, many of us know, is the worst kind) - but why he liked the ugly jumper in the first place is questionable.

    Regardless, he's the kind of controlling asshat that wants his women meek and servile. He doesn't want an equal, he wants a servant (slightly off the subject, but only slightly, see the Elvis Costello song "Mistress and Maid" - my personal preference is the Paul McCartney version from Off the Ground).

    Sadly for him, the sex is rarely good with somebody that repressed, but regardless...

    I suppose we could ask whether he would have taken the sister if his eventual wife was unavailable - they're the same type, and he wasn't looking for the prettiest girl in the room, is what I'm thinking.

    I do find some humor in that "I could go on and on about why I think this is, but I shan't, for the Modest Mom says I should draw this post to a close." Passive aggressive is a bitch, ain't it?

    And on that thought (with dim echoes of what some people have hinted at above), this is from a blog called "the Modest Mom." Consider that thought for a moment.

    "I shall write a blog, about modesty. I think people should take advice from me on this subject, and I'm qualified to give it. Because when it comes to modesty, I am the expert, after all: nobody is as modest as me."

    Just a thought.

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  21. I had come a looooong way - from "weird" to to wedlock.

    This joker's got a lot of nerve calling anybody weird. He's pretty much got that in the bag.

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  22. so...


    i know people who are perfectly modest NAKED! [i think i'm one of them.] i'm just fucking saying, there are two kinds of "modest" - there's "oh, look, you can't see any of my skin" sort of modest, and then there's "oh, it was nothing, anyone could have done that" modest.
    and he's conflating the two.


    as several others have alluded, dressing in that specific manner may APPEAR to be modest, but it's REALLY about "Look at me and my modesty! don't i make you feel like a complete and utter SLUT because you're wearing a tshirt and shorts in this 100F weather?!"


    and, as PF [and commenters] said, the problem is NOT how women dress - it's very specifically how men react to it. and it's up to MEN to be ADULTS and not judge a woman for wearing shorts and a tshirt when it's 100F. or whatever.


    [i am so fucking BEYOND this bullshit of "women are responsible for making sure that they don't turn men on by dressing in such a way that it DOESN'T turn men on, because men aren't fully realized adults, they aren't capable of controlling themselves". it's BS in all ways and it's INSULTING to BOTH women AND men.]

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  23. also - i probably shouldn't have - but i tried to take him to task about his BS about how "muslims are only interested in forcible conversion, unlike Christianity".
    probably a COMPLETE waste of my time. but i did try.

    sigh.

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  24. update:

    i was neither the first nor the last to protest their treatment of muslims and anababtists [or is that really "Amish" and, erm... i can't - oh, yean, Mennonites]

    so what did they di?erase everything we said, and erase everything we said it ABOUT. it was me, a muslim and a mennonite [i think!] who protested. we're gone, message gone, ta-da!

    now people are sort-of bitching because they "want to know what the anti-modesty arguments ARE] because they've ignored the new opening 'graph that says - hey, we don't like debate here. so instead of allowing debate, we're erasing the stuff that led TO debate" [and not even mentioning what that is!]


    sigh

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  25. This guy is to be commended for being one of the few people to make me want to show some skin*, even if it's just because I want to piss him off. And also so that this creepy modesty fetishist will never, ever want to fuck me. Ew.

    Oh, jumpers. How I hated thee. How I do not miss my aunts' gifts of color-coordinated jumpers and turtlenecks.

    *I usually wear skirts that go to my knees or lower. Not because I think they'll get me into Heaven, just because I like them.

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