Saturday, November 14, 2009
16 comments:
Comments are for you guys, not for me. Say what you will. Don't feel compelled to stay on topic, I enjoy it when comments enter Tangentville or veer off into Non Sequitur Town. Just keep it polite, okay?
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I think it is completely accurate. Terrorist find ways to get around walls, what the wall the Israelis are putting up is really do is separating them from the Palestinians, as an effort to further subjugate and control them. The wall is a travesty to human rights, and an act of terror itself.
ReplyDelete" The wall is a travesty to human rights, and an act of terror itself."
ReplyDeleteYeah, the people who are victims of terror are the ones committing acts of terror. That makes perfect sense. Building a wall to stop the influx of terror is somehow an act of terror. That sounds like a prime example of left-wing logic.
to claim that the Israelis are the "victims of terror" (and therefore imply the Palestinians are the "terrorists") demonstrates a two-dimensional understanding of the situation that can only come from many, MANY hours of the Fox News Network.
ReplyDeleteThe reality is that both the Israelis and the Palestinians are both generators of, and victims of terrorism.
The Israelis are victims when a bunch of insurgents suicide-bomb a shopping mall, and the Palestinians are victims when the Israelis, in turn, FIREBOMB ENTIRE RESIDENTIAL AREAS because somewhere in there, maybe, might be one or two of the moose-lims they're looking for.
As for the wall itself, I expect to be about as effective as our own walls on the Mexican border stopping illegal immigration...
Suicide bombing has dropped off dramatically since the wall went up, which is probably all the justification many would need.
ReplyDelete"to claim that the Israelis are the "victims of terror" (and therefore imply the Palestinians are the "terrorists") demonstrates a two-dimensional understanding of the situation that can only come from many, MANY hours of the Fox News Network."
ReplyDeleteI'm not "implying" anything. That Israelis are and have been victims of terror is an objective fact, as is the fact that Palestinians have and do use terrorism as a weapon. And spare me the leftist drivel about Fox News.
"Israelis, in turn, FIREBOMB ENTIRE RESIDENTIAL AREAS because somewhere in there, maybe, might be one or two of the moose-lims they're looking for."
Complete nonsense. Do you even know what a firebomb is? Give me one example (from an actual news source) of where the Israelis have "firebombed" an entire neighborhood to get one or two people. You apparently have little concept of the capabilities of the Israeli military or how it operates. Like most Western militaries, it takes extensive precautions to minimize civilian casualties. It isn't perfect, and it crosses the line at times, but unlike Palestinian terrorists it does not deliberately target the innocent. If the Israelis behaved like the Palestinians, there would be no Palestinians left alive. So naturally I reject your ridiculous attempt at false equivalence.
"As for the wall itself, I expect to be about as effective as our own walls on the Mexican border stopping illegal immigration..."
The wall's effectiveness is controversial, but suicide bombings have dropped sharply since its construction. So the evidence indicates that it has had a positive effect.
Walls, gates, gate keepers...
ReplyDeleteBack in the 70's I was stationed in Germany and our unit used to fly border patrols along the wall from Hof down. It was quite impressive.
Ol' Ron said, "...tear down this wall..." and Gorby, the back stabbin' sunuvabitch, he went and DID it! That CREEP!
It seems that while the public "We're Number One" strut was going on they were working overtime to find someone else to fight with...even Nicaragua.
A really terrible day for the US when Gorby called our bluff...
"The fact is the Israelis kill Palestinian civilians with reckless abandon"
ReplyDeleteNo, that is not a fact, it's a false characterization. They do indeed kill Palestinian civilians, because it is almost impossible not to accidentally kill people during military operations against terrorists who hide amongst the civilian population. But they take major precautions, including putting their own soldiers at greater risk, to minimize civilian casualties. There are certainly incidents that go against this policy, but incidents happen in all wars -- especially asymmetric ones. Again, if they behaved as you think they do, They would have wiped out the Palestinians long ago. They have to power to conduct a genocide if they so desired.
"Those very same insurgents should not, by any stretch of the imagination, throw in with the general Palestinian population, which is just trying to survive from one day to the next."
I didn't say that every Palestinian is a terrorist -- obviously there are plenty who have nothing to do with it. There are good people everywhere. But large numbers of Palestinians do support terrorist activity against Israel. (And yes, I understand their reasons for doing so).
"Or will you now seriously tell me that all Afghans are Taliban, and all Iraqis are Hamas?"
Of course not.
"The fact that you can use such ignorant generalizations demonstrates, beyond any shadow of my doubt, that you're at least as willfully ignorant as the Fox News types, whether or not you actually watch such rightist crap is irrelavent to the point."
The fact that you have little idea what you are talking about, and have to rely on arguing against your own strawmen, and spouting leftist nonsense about "Fox News types" rather than addressing what I actually wrote, tells me that you don't have an argument, just some unsupported anti-Israel ideas.
Why do you look through what I wrote and tell me where I used a single "ignorant generalization?" And I'm still waiting for that example of an massive Israeli incendiary attack that wiped out an entire neighborhood to get one or two people. Oh yeah, you were "exaggerating." You haven't answered a single point I actually made.
I know spouting unsupported talking points, name-calling, false analogies, and the use of strawmen are typical modes of left-wing argumentation, but I expect more from fellow atheists -- even ones on the left.
"it's a false characterization"
ReplyDeleteWe disagree, there's nothing I can say or show that'll make you agree. So what's the point?
"I didn't say that every Palestinian is a terrorist"
actually, you did:
"I'm not "implying" anything. That Israelis are and have been victims of terror is an objective fact, as is the fact that Palestinians have and do use terrorism as a weapon."
"Why do you look through what I wrote and tell me where I used a single "ignorant generalization?" "
see above, fucko.
"And I'm still waiting for that example of an massive Israeli incendiary attack that wiped out an entire neighborhood to get one or two people. Oh yeah, you were "exaggerating." You haven't answered a single point I actually made."
see above, fucko.
"I know spouting unsupported talking points, name-calling, false analogies, and the use of strawmen are typical modes of left-wing argumentation, but I expect more from fellow atheists -- even ones on the left."
Ah yes, I'm a left-wing argumentative strawman yielding athiest.
You don't know me, fucko. You don't know the palestinians, you don't know the Israelis, and you don't know what you said less than a day ago.
I initially responded with hyperbole because I hoped you were using it too, rather than being a racist bigot who believes Israelis can do no wrong and the Palestinians have any and all persecution coming.
I'll bet you think it was fine for us to corral up Japanese-americans in World War II.
You disgust me, I'm not a "fellow athiest", I'm not your fellow anything.
"actually, you did:
ReplyDelete"I'm not "implying" anything. That Israelis are and have been victims of terror is an objective fact, as is the fact that Palestinians have and do use terrorism as a weapon.""
Major lack of reading comprehension. There is absolutely nothing there that says every Palestinian is a terrorist. It says "Palestinians," not all Palestinians. What you quoted above is not only not ignorant, it isn't even a generalization. It's a simple statement of fact.
"see above, fucko."
Thanks for making one of my points by giving a good example of childish leftist namecalling.
"Ah yes, I'm a left-wing argumentative strawman yielding athiest."
I'm aware of that.
"I initially responded with hyperbole because I hoped you were using it too, rather than being a racist bigot who believes Israelis can do no wrong and the Palestinians have any and all persecution coming."
Ahh, now the charge of racism based on nothing. And another strawman. Good job, you went for a double dose of leftist nonsense. Obviously I don't believe either of those things. But we've already noted your lack of reading comprehension. I guess you missed where I specifically wrote that not every Palestinian is a terrorist, and that I even understood the reasoning of those who do support terrorism, and that the Israelis sometimes cross the line. Or you could just be intellectually dishonest.
"You don't know the palestinians, you don't know the Israelis, and you don't know what you said less than a day ago."
I'm not the ultimate expert on the Israeli-Palestinian situation, but I'm obviously far more knowledgeable than you. And I have an entire blog to remind me of what I said even many days ago, in case I forget :).
"I'll bet you think it was fine for us to corral up Japanese-americans in World War II."
No, actually I don't.
"You disgust me, I'm not a "fellow athiest", I'm not your fellow anything."
Uh oh, it looks like I offended a silly little child who can't hold a rational argument. Maybe you should only visit blogs where everone agrees with you.
Alright, after some cool off time...
ReplyDeleteAdmittedly it made me mad as hell for you to accuse me of being a "leftist" because I know from conservatives that roughly the equivalent on spitting on one's grave.
Since then, I've come to realize it's actually a beautiful privilege to be considered a "leftist" by you.
That said, this has devolved somewhat because miscommunications on both our ends.
I'll first say that I misinterpreted what you said as saying that "All Palestinians are terrorists", when in fact, upon clarification, you said "all terrorists in Israel are palestinians." To the best of my knowledge this is true, or at least 99.8% true (which is true enough).
The FACT is (and I hope we can agree on this point, or else my faith in humanity is gone) that not all Palestinians deserve punishment, censure, and murder for the reprehensible behavior of a select few. This is why I do not understand how you can advocate the physical seperation of the Palestinian population from the Israeli population while at the same time condemning the seperation of the Japanese-American population from the rest of the American population. Could you perhaps explain that point?
My firebombing point was, as I stated before, an exaggeration. You seem to have latched onto that, so I retract it entirely and will instead say that I feel the Israelis, particularly in recent years, have made continually brazen attacks on the Palestinian civilian population in the name of "hunting down terrorism". You obviously don't agree. Since you claim to have access to such varied and accurate news sources, I'll assume you've read what I have and will not endeavor do your research for you. We'll have to call this a matter of perspective.
As for the effectiveness of the wall itself, I contend that in a fairly short amount of time terrorists will find ways past/around the wall and we should be back to the usual suicide bombing quota within a couple years.
Follow-up points:
ReplyDelete1. I'm not an athiest, and I'm not your "fellow" athiest, to assume so was insanely arrogant, please don't do that again to anybody.
2. I believe the only reason the Israelis haven't opened a blatant campaign of genocide against the Palestinian population is because they value the support they receive from the U.S. too much, support which would likely be withdrawn if they annihilated an entire race of people.
"Admittedly it made me mad as hell for you to accuse me of being a "leftist" because I know from conservatives that roughly the equivalent on spitting on one's grave."
ReplyDeleteNot from me it isn't. Not all leftists are the same. There are plenty that I can reasonably disagree with. And as an atheist, pro-gay marriage, pro-choice, pro-drug legalizing, pro-amnesty,etc person, I'm hardly a typical conservative. Hardcore people on the right have called me a leftist.
"The FACT is (and I hope we can agree on this point, or else my faith in humanity is gone) that not all Palestinians deserve punishment, censure, and murder for the reprehensible behavior of a select few."
I agree. Plenty of Palestinians are essentially innocent victims caught in a terrible situation beyond their control. The reason I support the wall, is because I see it as a reasonable defensive measure against terrorist infiltration. That doesn't mean that I don't recognize that it has negative effects on innocent people. I see it as a necessary evil.
"t I feel the Israelis, particularly in recent years, have made continually brazen attacks on the Palestinian civilian population in the name of "hunting down terrorism"."
Ok, fair enough. I don't see it that way based on my study of military history, and my overall perspective on the situation.
"As for the effectiveness of the wall itself, I contend that in a fairly short amount of time terrorists will find ways past/around the wall and we should be back to the usual suicide bombing quota within a couple years."
That's certainly possible. No defensive measure is foolproof or unassailabe.
" I'm not an athiest, and I'm not your "fellow" athiest, to assume so was insanely arrogant, please don't do that again to anybody."
Why was it arrogant to assume that someone commenting on an explicitly atheist blog was also an atheist? I am a regular commenter here, and most of us are atheists.
"I believe the only reason the Israelis haven't opened a blatant campaign of genocide against the Palestinian population is because they value the support they receive from the U.S. too much, support which would likely be withdrawn if they annihilated an entire race of people."
I see that as an extremely unfair view of the Israelis, and a failure to understand that they have a highly diverse democratic political culture with a wide range of viewpoints, from far left to far right. They also have an independent judiciary which investigates and holds members of the military accountable for abuses.
Recently a Jewish settler went on a murderous rampage and killed two Palestinian civilians. He will rot in jail when an Israeli court is done with him. What happens when Palestinians do the same to Israeli civilians? They are treated as heroes and martyrs.
For some reason copy/paste isn't working.
ReplyDeleteIt was arrogant to assume I was a "fellow athiest" because you plugged in two assumptions there. 1. that I thought as you do, and 2. that because I'm on an athiest blog means I could be nothing else.
For the record, I'm not a Christian either, or any other recognizable religion on this earth. I'm sort of a vague theist/spiritualist.
Anyway, now you know. and knowing is half the battle.
As to my "unfair view of Israelis", you might have a point. Perhaps it would be more accurate to attribute that view to the Israeli military, which is a seperate entity from overall Israeli culture and criminal justice system.
I think because so much of what I read/hear/see about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is military in nature I tend to project the behaviors of the military on the Israeli people as whole.
and, UNNR - there are many of us here who are not atheists. PF tolerates us because we worship her :D
ReplyDeleteUNRR is pretty correct here.
ReplyDeleteThe main problem with the wall is the resulting economic hardship because it is difficult to get passes to go through. However, there's no intrinsic problem with it.
Three things to note: First, in every single case that went to the Israeli Supreme Court over the exact route of the security fence, Palestinians asked for their area to be included on the Israeli side rather than the other way around. Second, Egypt has a similar set of barriers on its border with the Gaza strip. Third, the security fence system has resulted in a massive drop in suicide bombing and similar attacks.
The plan is that in the long term, as the situation calms down it will be easier and easier to cross the border. This isn't actually that different from what happened historically on Cyprus, but in a more unilateral fashion.
The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is a deeply complicated set of interlocking issues. However, this sort of simple framing is unhelpful. We will not gain resolution of the problems there by demonizing any side. There are legitimate problems with the wall and associated security measures. This sort of cartoon is not one of them.
Sorry, that last sentence isn't exactly coherent. I meant something like "The attitude in this sort of cartoon is not helpful."
ReplyDelete