How Is God Different From Hitler?

christianity, hitler, hell, holocaust, god, jesus, comfort

When evaluating beliefs, it's sometimes useful to stretch them out to their most outrageous conclusion and see what you end up with. Once Saved Always Saved* theology turns monstrous fairly quickly when you do this. You can end up with a child molester spending eternity in heaven while his victims spend eternity in hell.

You can end up with every Jew killed in the Holocaust burning in hell while Hitler enjoys heaven.

To any thinking, moral person, this is offensive. Immediately, punched-in-the-gut offensive. Yet, at the very least, believers in OSAS are forced to defend it, though most of them will proudly state, "Oh, Anne Frank? Burning hell**. Hitler, he could be in heaven. I don't know." So, basically, Auschwitz was just a little taste of what god is meting out to them right now. Nice. You sick fucking psychopaths.

Ray Comfort's The Eternal Destiny of the Jew attempts to deal with the issue, though it's really just a rehash of "we're all sinners, you need Jesus, burn in hell", but what's really interesting are the various defenses on the part of the fundy commentors.

Rock Sprites said...
Ryan Anderson said:

"Will you concede that Hitler COULD have found salvation at the end?"

Yes, just like anyone else

I can't decide if she just hasn't thought the issue through, or if the idea of a man responsible for the deaths of tens of millions in heaven while his innocent victims burn in hell is totally okay with her. She said that like I would say, "well, yes, Hitler may have enjoyed tea as much as anyone else." Say that sort of thing to normal people and they won't like tea quite as much anymore. But Rock Sprites is totally cool with spending eternity with Hitler.

Starbuck said...

And just because you were a victim of murder does not negate the fact you are a sinner. If you don't have Christ, then you don't have life. It's simple. Stop with the emotional victim being sent to hell because they refused Christ.

All stories of someone going to hell is sad. All of them. That isn't what God wants. God does NOT take pleasure in the destruction of the wicked. He is saddened by it. So take that God gleefully sends poor innocent people to hell and STUFF IT. It isn't even remotely true. The only ones in hell will be sinners and deserve it. But not everyone who deserves it will get hell.

If you don't like it. So? What are you going to do about it? A much more powerful angel has been trying to thwart God for atleast 6000 years, maybe longer. He will lose. What makes you so high and mighty to say the crap you say about God? He really does wish you would come to him. But you won't because you think you are smart and strong and he doesn't exist.

Well, so what? You end up in hell... SO WHAT?!

First of all, Holocaust victims were a little more than murder victims. Sure, some were shot right off the bat, but most were starved and tortured first. It's a matter of degree. Secondly, so what? Damn straight, so what about all those people spending forever and ever and ever being tortured forever? Who cares about that? It's boring, really. You scare me, Starbuck.

And if god is so very saddened by about 80% of humanity ending up in hell, why doesn't he do something about it? He is omnipotent, you know. Way to typecast the omnipotent being as a victim in all this.

I just can't see being okay with the idea of billions of people, most of whom did nothing wrong, suffering as Holocaust victims did for all eternity, especially when that idea is held concurrently with the idea that a man like Hitler could very well be enjoying the rewards of heaven. It's mind-boggling. It's horrible. It's the opposite of moral.

It's Christianity.

*OSAS is the essence of fundy theology. Essentially, once you "accept Jesus into your heart", that's it. You're going to heaven. It doesn't matter what you did before you were saved, or even what you do after, just as long as you're saved.

**Fundys will occasionally attempt to weasel out of this by stating that "we don't know" what Anne Frank or 6,000,000 other Jews believed at their deaths, but I find it unlikely that people who were tortured at the hands of nominal Christians for the crime of being Jewish converted to Christianity en masse. Highly unlikely.

I Love You, Barney Frank

barney frank, health care, nazi, townhall, obama, hitler


Do I need to say more?

Rep. Broun Godwins the Entire World

hitler, godwin, conservative, GOP, obama, wingnut, socialism, marxism,

There is no possibility of reasonable discussions with a good portion of the GOP*. Exhibit "A": Representative Paul Broun of Georgia (do I need to tell you which party?) Godwins the entire world in his latest delusional rant.

"It may sound a bit crazy and off base "may"? "a bit"?, but the thing is, he's the one who proposed this national security force," Rep. Paul Broun said of Obama in an interview Monday with The Associated Press. "I'm just trying to bring attention to the fact that we may—may not, I hope not—but we may have a problem with that type of philosophy of radical socialism or Marxism."

In case you're not familiar with what Broun is referring to, it is Obama's proposal for a civilian reserve corps that could handle postwar reconstruction efforts such as rebuilding infrastructure—an idea endorsed by the Bush administration. Remember, Broun? Those guys you loved? Were just in power until 6 months ago?

"That's exactly what Hitler did in Nazi Germany and it's exactly what the Soviet Union did," Broun said. "When he's proposing to have a national security force that's answering to him, that is as strong as the U.S. military, he's showing me signs of being Marxist." Yeah, we probably shouldn't take history lessons from people that can't remember last year.

Broun said he believes Obama would move to ban gun ownership if he does build a national security force. I love all the weaselwording. "If he does . . . I believe . . . he may . . ." Once you've Godwin'd, you don't get to hide behind "I said he might do it . . ."

Obama has said he respects the Second Amendment right to bear arms and favors "common sense" gun laws. Gun rights advocates interpret that as meaning he'll at least enact curbs on ownership of assault weapons and concealed weapons. entirely different from banning gun ownership. seriously, who the fuck needs a concealed assualt rifle? As an Illinois state lawmaker, Obama supported a ban on semiautomatic weapons and tighter restrictions on firearms generally.

"We can't be lulled into complacency," Broun said. "You have to remember that Adolf Hitler was elected in a democratic Germany. No, he was not. Hitler was elected to a fairly minor political office, that's true. But he was appointed Chancellor of Germany (not a democratic move) and then appointed himself Fuhrer (again, not democratic) I'm not comparing him to Adolf Hitler. which is why you've mentioned Hitler three times in as many minutes? What I'm saying is there is the potential of going down that road."

This is what passes for reasoned discourse? This is what the First Amendment has come to? Godwinning the entire world every time someone sticks a microphone in your face? How long do you suppose it will be before some unhinged wingnut with concealed bazooka decides that the only way to save the world from SuperMarxistBlackHitler is to kill people? Given the hysteria, the extremity, the insanity, of right wing speech lately, I'm surprised it hasn't happened yet.

Mark my words: in a world where a congressman can call the President of the United States Hitler- with no consequences- violence is guaranteed. The only question is when.

*UNRR is more than capable of reasonable discussion. I just wish the entire GOP was like him.

The Post 911 Godwin

homophobia, homosexual, gay, marriage, godwin, terrorist, hitler, nazi,

In case you're not familiar with Godwin's Law (which would make this discussion rather confusing for you):

Godwin's Law (also known as Godwin's Rule of Nazi Analogies)[1] is an adage formulated by Mike Godwin in 1990. The law states: "As a Usenet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1."[2][3]

Godwin's Law is often cited in online discussions as a deterrent against the use of arguments in the reductio ad Hitlerum form.

The rule does not make any statement about whether any particular reference or comparison to Adolf Hitler or the Nazis might be appropriate, but only asserts that one arising is increasingly probable. It is precisely because such a comparison or reference may sometimes be appropriate, Godwin has argued,[4] that overuse of Nazi and Hitler comparisons should be avoided, because it robs the valid comparisons of their impact.

There are many corollaries to Godwin's law, some considered more canonical (by being adopted by Godwin himself)[2] than others invented later.[1] For example, there is a tradition in many newsgroups and other Internet discussion forums that once such a comparison is made, the thread is finished and whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically "lost" whatever debate was in progress.

I posit the Post 911 Godwin: we can now accept "terrorist" as being the equivalent of "Hitler" or "Nazi", and calling someone a terrorist is indeed a Godwin.

I mention this because I was totally Post 911 Godwin'd today (see screenshot above). Apparently, if you call someone a "homophobe", the terrorists have won! And I really need to work on my beard.

Godwin's Law and PF's Corollary

facism, socialism, gingrich, newt, obama, drug, testing, mandatory, fail, hitler, nazi,

In case you've never heard of it, Godwin's Law states that "if you mention Hitler or Nazis in a post, you've automatically ended whatever discussion you were taking part in". After reading an interesting idea from Newt Gingrich (more on that later), I have come up with a corollary to Godwin's Law: invoking facism/Hitler/Nazi often enough is an effective strategy if you have something to do or say that actually is facist, and you don't want your opponent to be able to call you on it.



For example*: by David Niewert, Crooks & Liars




O'Reilly: I don't know whether you know this, but I did one of my papers at Harvard on this -- on how to reduce demand for drugs. But the United States has never figured it out. You can't lock up drug users, I mean, that doesn't work. And you can't force them into rehab, you have to want rehab, and even if you want it, it's very hard to get off hard drugs and alcohol. Very hard.
What you can do, though, is sanction people along the way. And this is what they do in Singapore. If you're caught possessing drugs -- and that means drugs in your bloodstream, they have a little hair thing, and they put it in there -- then you have to go to mandatory rehab. And they have centers where you go.


Now, they have no drug problem in Singapore at all, number one, because they hang drug dealers -- they execute them. And number two, the market is very thin, because when they catch you using, you go away with a mandatory rehab. You go to some rehab center, which they have, which the government has built.


The United States does not have the stomach for that. We don't have the stomach for that, Mr. Speaker.


Gingrich: Well, I think it's time we get the stomach for that, Bill. And I think we need a program -- I would dramatically expand testing. I think we have -- and I agree with you. I would try to use rehabilitation, I'd make it mandatory. And I think we have every right as a country to demand of our citizens that they quit doing illegal things which are funding, both in Afghanistan and in Mexico and in Colombia, people who are destroying civilization.



Conservatives have been throwing "socialist" and "fascist" at Obama nonstop since he was inaugurated (and before, really). At first, I found this to be a gross misunderstanding of both history and politics. To put Obama in the same league as Hitler represents a fundamental misunderstanding of that entire episode in our world's history. Complete, utter, fundamental history fail. To call someone both a socialist and a facist is like calling someone tall and short, fat and thin, pale and tanned at the same time. Socialism and facism are polar opposites on the political spectrum.



Now I understand why conservatives have been doing this. What Gingrich is suggesting is facism. Plain and simple. Drug test everyone and then forceably rehabilitate anyone who tests positive. The whole country is a suspect, and civil rights no longer apply. However, we cannot call Gingrich on his facism, because it looks like we're just joining in the "invoke Hitler as often as possible game", and that just makes everyone look stupid.



I suggest we replace "facism" with "Gingrichism".



Unfortunately, no matter what you call it, Gingrich's plan is foolish and dangerous, and we all might want to pay close attention from here on out to what I previously assumed were a bunch of Godwin's Law losers.

*link has video of the quoted conversation

Obama's Thugs and the Hitlerization of History

conservative, politics, democracy, democrat, ogden, obama, stupid, christian, religion, history, hitler, facism, socialism, abortion, traditional, marriage
Wow. Just wow. Seriously wow.

Let's start by saying that Obama inherited the debt our country is currently in. Obama inherited the financial mess we are now in. (I'm typing forbearance agreements, foreclosures and complaints nonstop at this point. Don't try to tell me we're not headed for a depression.) Obama inherited the wars we are currently embroiled in, one of which is being fought to the tune of 10 Billion Dollars a Month.

He inherited all this from former President George W. Bush and the Republicans. George W. Bush who did NOT end abortion. George W. Bush who entered into a war on "faulty intelligence"- his own. George W. Bush who based appointments on loyalty rather than qualifications.

To say that Obama is a facist dictator appointing "thugs" is fearmongering and a gross misunderstanding of facts. The use of the word "thugs" itself is disturbing, given the flavor that word has acquired. You may as well just say, "He's black, therefore, his friends are thugs. You know how black people are." Don't even get me started comparing anyone to Hitler.

Just to give you a clue, pearlysantorum, my boss' mother was a Holocaust survivor. Her life, and his, were forever marked by Hitler and the Nazis. When people compare anyone to Hitler, my boss becomes enraged. As far as I can tell, it's the only thing that makes him angry. To compare Obama to Hitler is just . . . unbelievable, and you should be ashamed. I suggest a visit to the Holocaust Museum, in case you can't quite figure out why I might find this so offensive.

By the way, socialism and fascism are two ENTIRELY DIFFERENT THINGS. Totally different. Couldn't be more different if they tried. Get a fucking history book, pearlysantorum.

Oh, and David Ogden's work on First Amendment issues helped preserve your right to make such offensive statements. That is irony.

Pearl’s sworn statement of awareness, 2/5/2009: is it notarized? filed with the Court? do we perhaps misunderstand the meaning of "sworn statement"?

I will not lose my sense of indignation over the intentional and selfish breakdown of marriage and family because other people's lives are totally her business. all 6 billion people in the world report to her. oh, wait, who's the facist dictator again? no matter if it comes from my fellow citizens, the president, or his “official” they are official pearlysantorum. i bet you weren't this frightened and upset when Bush was appointing completely unqualified people to important posts.thugs.

I will not lose my sense of indignation over the devaluation of life no matter if it comes from my fellow citizens, the president, or his “official” thugs. good for you. how about crusading for birth control to prevent unwanted pregancies? how about crusading for paid maternity leave so mothers can afford to give birth? how about crusading for universal healthcare so mothers and babies can see doctors and not leave the hospital owing tens of thousands of dollars?

I will not lose my sense of indignation over the total disregard for parental and children’s rights no matter if it comes from my fellow citizens, the president, or his “official” thugs. i don't even know what your . . . oh, yeah, no name calling week. cause you're not a good christian if you don't say "n**ger" and "f*g".

I will not lose my sense of indignation over the marketing of pernicious evils seriously? i really doubt obama has read after the ball. nobody else but you takes that book quite that seriously. no matter if it comes from my fellow citizens, the president, or his “official” thugs.

I will not lose my sense of indignation over the increasingly overt attacks on religion WHAT?! you represent 76% of population, you persecution loving moron! your high holy days are federal holidays. you are free to push your religion on whomever you want. you can carry around your holy book where ever you go. Meanwhile an (maybe) atheist in Texas is fired for being (maybe) an atheist. GET OVER YOURSELF, YOU STUPID SNOT. no matter if they come from my fellow citizens, the president, or his “official” thugs.

I will not lose my sense of indignation over attempts to rewrite, nullify, or ill-interpret our nation’s sacred Constitution no matter if they come from my fellow citizens, the president, or his “official” thugs. are you getting your news from WorldNetDaily again?

And I will take all that burning indignation, ball it up into a great, heaping, fiery wad of ambition, a great, heaping, fiery "wad"? BWAHAHAHAHAHA and hurl it with a fury at breakdown, devaluation, disregard, marketing, attack, and subversion. Oh, wait, i used my wild laughter too soon. it got funnier. i've got nowhere to go with this now that pearlysantorum has started satirizing herself.

Essentially, I vow to never stop being surprised, indignant, and outraged at evil. yes, yes, we get it. you like repetition. you, my dog and the average 4 year old share a deep love for repetition. And I vow to never stop exposing those people (and their agendas) who would lull Americans into a false sense of security just before slapping on the hand-cuffs, delivering them to a room devoid of all things pure and innocent, and declaring them eternal captives of “progression” and “free-thinking.” you honestly believe that at some point, Obama is going to handcuff you, throw you in a jail cell decorated, I guess, in porn, or possibly printouts of my blog, or pages torn from After the Ball, and damn you to eternal captivity? eternal? i thought only god could do that.

I choose to remain a humble you can't claim humility after the above self-serving rant. sorry. pick one. servant of tradition, value just one value? is that the value of being surprised, the value of sticking your nose where it doesn't belong or the value of offensive Hitler comparisons?, and morality rather than a prisoner to the oxymoron that is “enlightenment.” why is enlightenment oxymoronic? or do you just like the word "oxymoron"?

Well, I’m waxing eloquent. You're waxing something. I’ve got to wrap this up before no one takes me seriously anymore. Too late for that. I am well aware that I tend toward dramatic intonation in my expressive style of communication BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA, but make no mistake that the sentiment behind the eccentricity is genuine and the imagery is, in my thinking what? is that really the right verb?, quite chillingly accurate.
Advocating Awareness, ~Pearl

I wish conservative "political" bloggers like Pearl would attend BlogHer. Maybe she would learn something.