41% of NonChristian AF Cadets Report Unwanted Proselytizing

Speaking of the First Amendment (aren't we always?):

An Air Force Academy survey found that 41 percent of cadets who who identified themselves as non-Christian said they were subjected to unwanted proselytizing at least once or twice last year.

Overall, 19 percent of all cadets said they were subjected to unwanted proselytizing.

That number should be zero, but things are looking up.

[Lt. Gen. Michael] Gould, who was not at the academy at the time of the 2004 survey, has made it a priority to improve religious tolerance, launching new programs and frequently reminding cadets, faculty and staff of the need to respect others' beliefs, or lack of beliefs.

In August, when he described the latest survey in general terms, Gould said the results showed fewer cadets felt pressured to participate in religious groups than in previous surveys.

The documents obtained by the AP appear to support that contention. They show that the percentage of Christians and non-Christians, including atheists, who felt pressure to get involved in religious activities declined, compared with a survey in 2007.

Huh. That's funny. The evangelical Christian Commander in Chief leaves office and religious pressure within the military eases. Imagine that.

How to Annoy Your Coworkers: a Christian Guide

I used to work with a woman who was annoyingly Christian. The attorney she worked for is a really nice guy who curses a blue streak when he's annoyed. Nothing outrageous, like "cuntbushel" or "cocknozzle"*, just some random "fucks" and "assholes". She would get up and walk away or mutter furiously about being exposed to such language and her, a Christian! I took this for hypocrisy after she was fired, and arrested, for embezzling $5,000 from the firm, but apparently being obnoxious is deliberate form of evangelism.

How do we let them see Christ in us?

When one can't witness, lets say at work or something, then let them
see Christ in you. How does that work?

I must be in a mood, but my mind went to the dirtiest place ever when I read that. Putting my general deviance aside, I would assume the answer would be kindness, generosity, going above and beyond for your fellow man- oh, who the fucktrout am I kidding? These are fundys. The answer is obvious: annoy the piss out of your coworkers.

It is hard for me to witness at work, but I do it by my actions. Any time
someone uses blasphemy, later on I will approach them and just ask when they are
around me to please refrain from that language as it is offensive to me.
Whenever the conversations get crude or vulgar, I either excuse myself or just
walk away or start doing something else. If you have a lunch room everyone eats
in and you are comfortable with it, you can always say a prayer before your
meal. These are a few things that set Christians apart. I hope this helps.

I lecture my coworkers like children and pray like the Pharisees. That'll work!

Well, I usually find that just in the course of a conversation, I might say
"thank God", or "only in Jesus", and sometimes it stumps folks, but I say it
anyway. Even for something as simple and clear traffic, I will look out window
and say, "Thank you Jesus"...Or someone may see me go on break and I say I am
going to listen to the Word, read my Bible. I have a little orange pocket one
that really stands out.

Dude, I still say "thank God" on a regular basis. That's about as stumpworthy as driving down the street and seeing an American flag waving- in the US. Also, I'm an atheist, and I think a neon orange bible is a bit blasphemous. I again invoke praying like Pharisees.

Cocopea.... IMO you should say God bless you to atheists too when they sneeze..
its a small jesture but God wants to bless them even if they dont' believe He
exists. I think it'll keep His name in front of them and bring Him to mind, even
if in a minor way. You never know when hearing "God bless you" trillions of
times along w/ another event just might turn their paths around. Not saying it
(at least to me) is like saying they dont need God's blessing. And they
definitely need His blessing, but they need to find God first. Does that make
sense? I say it to everyone in public.. and mean it.... you never know how He
works... !

I say "bless you" when people sneeze. It's ingrained so deep I'm having more luck training myself to sneeze into my elbow than I am training myself to say "gehsundheidt" when someone else sneezes. My point being that a random "bless you!" when I sneeze is not going to make me praise Jesus.

Wearing a Christian necklace, button, bringing a bible to work(read it during
breaks), or even decorating your work space(if you work in an office) can help
show them that you're a Christian.

I do believe we call a Christian necklace a "cross", and can I introduce you to a word? It's "ubiquitous": existing or being everywhere at the same time : constantly encountered. That is the best description of Christian necklaces I can think of. Let me put it this way: if Madonna was wearing crosses 20 years ago, nobody today is going to look at your cross and think, "Wow! This person is so different! I should ask them about their curious neck wear."

From now on when my coworkers annoy me mercilessly, I will assume they are trying to convert me to Christianity. It's as good an explanation as any other.



*I like my obscenities to be vaguely amusing in a way that makes the listener stop and think "Wuh?" 5 minutes later.

It's Not the Good News We Hate

proselytizing, evangelism, tony, miano,
Imagine working with someone who only has one interest: gardening. Now imagine if that person talked solely about gardening, no matter what the conversation- and they just have to join every conversation. You're discussing the latest episode of Lost, they start talking about fertilizing their garden. You're talking about the football game, they join in with an in depth look at how they're organizing the vegetables this year. You're enjoying a little birthday celebration for a coworker, they can't shut up about their pumpkins.

You're going to avoid that person at all costs, for a very good reason: they have no interest in you, other than as a means of indulging their monomania. Thus is Tony Miano, evangelist extraordinaire.

This morning I went to the Bellflower DMV, not far from Living Waters
headquarters, to renew my driver's license. Michelle, who spent the day with me,
and I got to the DMV about 45 minutes before the facility opened. The line
quickly grew to well-over 100 people.

There was only one thing to do. :-)

I recently had to go to PennDOT to renew my ID. About the only thing that would have made that experience worse is having to listen to someone proselytize for an hour. (You should see my picture- the look on my face could only be explained by aliens landing to my left just as the picture was taken.)

There were more things than preaching to do, Mr. Miano. You could have respected your fellow ID seekers and left them alone. You could have worked on a crossword puzzle. You could have balanced your checkbook. Or, you could have spent an hour getting to know someone. You could have enjoyed another human being as a unique individual, instead of as an object to satisfy your monomania.

I had a delightful conversation with an immigrant from Ukraine who recently became a US citizen. I learned all sorts of things I never knew about Ukraine. (For one thing, it's not "the Ukraine", it's "Ukraine" and the secret to great borscht is lemon juice right at the end.) She was a lot of fun, but that's something Mr. Miano will never know, because all he ever does is talk at people, not to them.

Threatening Fundy Mad Libs

mad libs, humor, funny, fundy, proselytizing, evangelism, witness, religion, christianity, atheism, atheist,
In saying hello to my little friend sparky, The Woeful Budgie came up with a new game: Threatening Fundy Mad Libs.

You see, after trying to convert me (possibly to Islam, maybe to Hinduism) with the standard raytarded fallacious arguments, sparky resorted to the equally standard "I'll get you all, my little pretties!" threat:

Here's the basics: God is God. There you go. It doesn't mattter what you think. It doesn't matter that you're an Atheist. It doesn't even matter that you're extremely smart and logical! The fact is that one day you WILL DIE. And one day you'll stand before God and in all your ignorance say, "I don't believe in you." And guess what? God will reply, "It doesn't matter that you don't believe in me, Personal Failure, I'm still here, and eternity is here..."

As the Woeful Budgie demonstrates, simply replace the words in red with the same part of speech, and you have a threatening fundy mad lib.

Here's the basics: Hill-Rod is Hill-Rod. There you go. It doesn't mattter what you bang. It doesn't matter that you're a spork. It doesn't even matter that you're swimmingly quaint and squishy!The fact is that one day you WILL EMASCULATE. And one day you'll kick before Hill-Rod and in all your tediousness say, "I don't believe in cocaine." And guess what? Hill-Rod will reply, "It doesn't matter that you don't believe in cocaine, Personal Failure, I'm still awesome, and eternity is tropical..."

Let the conversion hilarity begin!

Say Hello to My Little Friend

evangelism, witnessing, proselytizing, religion, god, bible, jesus, atheism, atheist, humor,
Somebody tried to Ray me into christianity yesterday. It was spectacularly unsuccessful, but quite amusing nonetheless. And yes, I will now mercilessly mock them.

The following exchange is from the comments to my From the If It Rhymes, It's Poetry School of Thought post.

your friend who doesn't use profanity said...
Logical question: How do you think the world began?

two issues right off the bat: (1) I talk like the proverbial sailor- on meth. I don't have any friends that don't use profanity. (2) Starting the conversation with a self righteous screen name probably isn't the best conversion strategy.

my answer:

logical answer: i'm not a physicist, i'm a legal secretary. the theory colloquially known as "big bang" isn't bad, though. there's a link in this post to universe beginning theories, if you want to learn more.

the fact of the matter, little friend, is that unlike you, i don't need absolute answers to every possible question. I'm fine with not knowing things. I don't know how to perform neurosurgery, I don't know how to build cars, and I don't know how the universe "started" (some theories seem to imply it didn't start or that start isn't really the right word).

apparently, my friend may now begin using profanity.

Your 'little friend' said...

I didn't say that I 'need absolute answeres to every possible question.' So don't jump to conclusions. Anyways, you say that you don't REALLY believe in anything- but if you WERE going to believe in something, it would be the big bang.Here's what the big band says: Everything (umm... that would be NOTHING) came together, spun really fast, and then blew up and created... everything!Now that just doesn't seem logical.

classic Ray Comfort right there. he puts words in my mouth, parrots the line about nothing into everything and then tells me it's not logical. and does it in the most ungrammatical, misspelled way possible.

and then I get snide:

First off, don't put words in my mouth. I said I don't know, and that I lack the knowledge base to make an informed decision on the issue.

However, that is not what the big bang theory states. That's what Ray Comfort says the big bang states, which is an entirely different thing.

What you did there is called a Strawman Fallacy. You built up a rather silly argument, attributed it to me, and then tore it down. Good for you, but all you did was display your ignorance.

Thanks for playing.

I thought maybe I'd come on too strong, but my little friend is persistant if nothing else. and just a little bit confused as to what an ad hominem attack is.

I'm not finished. What you just used in your last comment is called an 'ad hominen attack'. It's where you attack the person instead of his arguement. So you pretty much refuted my arguement by attacking me, good job chap. i seriously considered changing my name from Personal Failure to Good Job Chap.

You still haven't answered the question; the question is this: 'How was the world started?' All you've said so far is that you 'don't know'. So does that mean that you're open to sugestions? Or are you going to be ignorant with your own knowledge?

my response:

*sigh* telling a person what logical fallacy they committed is not considered an ad hom. an ad hom would be if i called you a liar, or stupid or a criminal, thus implying that nothing you say can be trusted because you are a bad person.

please learn the fallacies before you accuse people of them.

how could a person be ignorant with their own knowledge? that doesn't even make sense. do you know how the brain works? what about DNA? are intimately familiar with the inner workings of your own DNA? do you know exactly how your computer works?

every day every person on the planet, no matter how smart or educated, proceeds with ignorance. we are all ignorant about lots of things. there's simply too much to know to know it all.you, and everyone else on the planet, are totally fine with this. you're clearly living your life instead of being paralyzed by the weight of your own ignorance, so why is my ignorance on a very esoteric subject of so much interest to you?

to put it another way "you can't prove how the universe got started" is not going to convert me. do you have any other strategies, or are you new at this?

geds jumps in with a new name for my little friend (which made me spew 7up):

Um, listen up, Sparky.An ad hominem attack would be me saying, "You're wrong because you rape puppies." Saying, "You're wrong because your arguments are stupid and fallacious," is called "rhetoric."

You might want to re-think what you're doing there...

charmingly, my little friend actually adopts the new name!

your 'little friend' Sparky said...

Alright, so I don't have a clue what I'm talking about. In fact, I'm new to this planet Earth, thank you for clearing things up for me. You STILL haven't answered the Q. All you've been doing is attacking me; you don't even know who I am or what I believe!

angry much? also, exactly how many times do i have to answer your question? i can definitively say that you are some sort of theist, because atheists don't Ray each other. (unless someone was poeing me)

now pay special attention to what my response is, because apparently sparky will not.

I'm not attacking you, but I also don't let logical fallacies go. I already told you what I know and don't know. I don't know what started the universe, I don't think it's god, and certainly not the god of the bible, or any other holy book I've read. If I saw proof of god (other than the creation itself), I'd certainly accept it, but that's hardly belief.

sparky then replies twice:

your 'little friend' Sparky said...

It goes like this:You're pretty much saying that you haven't a clue what you believe, but you KNOW that there is no God.

Hmm... Why's that?

your 'little friend' Sparky said...

Alright, you're finally getting somewhere...Now you're a person looking for proof, that's great!

Here we go...If you saw a coke (you know, like the good old-fashion coke) would you say that someone created the coke, or that it just came into existence?

total Ray, with the addendum that he is not talking about illegal substances. just in case.

no, i've never said I "know" there is no god. i've never seen proof of god. the bible isn't proof of god. your feelings aren't proof of god. existence proves nothing, because i've seen good scientific explanations for existence that don't rest on stories thousands of years old.

you're trying the new twist on the watchmaker argument. it's fallacious and silly, and i'll even explain why.

i can follow the delivery truck back to the manufacturing plant and watch people making coke cans right in front of me. i can touch those people, smell those people, see those people, hear those people, and if we're particularly friendly, i can taste them.

can i watch god making anything? no. do we have pictures of god making anything? no. can i smell or taste or hear god? no.

so, we've gone through two Comfort evangelization strategies, just for practice do you want to try another? the ten commandments exercise is always fun. presumptuous, but since we're apparently "friends", go for it.

in fairness to Sparky, that's actually not a twist on the watchmaker argument. it's still silly.


I really thought Sparky would stop after that, but no, he goes for the "you're so ignorant and stupid, i won't even bother" (although he does):

your 'little friend' said...

Well, to tell you the truth, I hadn't even heard of Ray Comfort until yesterday, so all of this is coming from your dear lil'o friend. Explain to me how Atheists can look around them, and not see that someone created everything... I look at the computer I'm typing on right now, and I KNOW that someone created it!

Besides, there are TONS of faults with the 'big bang' theory and evolution. If you wish, I can tell them to you, but chances are, even if I refute everything evolution has ever standed for, you'd still be ignorant.

yeah. sure. and what exactly did evolution "standed" for? (I'm the ignorant one?)

and now the big finish:

your 'little friend' said...

This is refering to your earlier point:What if I showed you a picture of God? Would you believe then?

I'll answer that for you: No. You wouldn't believe. Even if I provided you with every proof that God exists, you still wouldn't believe. But one day you WILL believe, and I hope you're on the right side, or you'll be 'Forever In Hell'. Christ says that "EVERY knee will bow and every tongue will confess..."

this is fantastic! i don't even have to answer his questions anymore- he'll do it for me! Sparky does totally get the name of my blog, but an argument to consequences is not a good one.

my reply:

I suppose you're right in one sense. If you said that I did not, in fact, have a niece, and then I showed you my niece, you wouldn't "believe" in my niece, you would accept the verified existence of my niece.

You seem to be saying that if god appeared before me right now, I'd shut my eyes, put my hands over my ears and start shouting LALALALA, which is just silly.

But one day you WILL believe, and I hope you're on the right side, or you'll be 'Forever In Hell'. Christ says that "EVERY knee will bow and every tongue will confess...Can you predict the future? Of course not. You have no idea what I will or will not do. Having lost the argument, you are now resorting to threatening me with your special book.

This is the fallacy of argument to consequences: do it, or suffer. it can be convincing in certain situations, but that doesn't make it any less fallacious.

By the way, I call bullshit on the idea that you have not heard of Ray Comfort. You have been giving me, word for word, all of Ray's Way of the Master evangelism arguments. If you really have not heard of Mr. Comfort, then whoever taught you those arguments certainly has.

I imagine the hilarity is now ended, but it was fun while it lasted.

What Is Evangelism Not?

conversion, religion, christian, god, christianity, atheism, atheist, pagan, evangelism, evangelist, witness, proselytizing, bible
9 marks (I don't get the reference) explains what evangelism is- by defining what evangelism is not. (Go ahead, explain to an alien what a cupcake is by telling the alien what it is not. I'm sure the alien will get a really clear picture of cupcakes from that.)


The Impossibility of Imposition. Many people equate evangelism with imposition - someone imposing their religious views on another person as a ploy for power or control. But this idea is mistaken. keep going . . .

To equate evangelism with imposition implies that Christianity is only subjectively true - true and binding for me, but not for others. so it's totally okay for me to beat you over the head with The Origin of the Species? i can't even deal with this "objectively true" nonsense. clearly not, or we'd all be christians . . . oh, wait, these are the same people that don't accept evolution . . . and now i'm reduced to cogito ergo sum. Christianity is not man's subjective opinion. no, it's your subjective opinion. It is God's objective truth, regardless of our subjective opinions. oh, dear.

To equate evangelism with imposition implies that Christians are able to convert people themselves, which is entirely false. this is a "planting the seeds" argument. essentially, evangelists excuse their overwhelming failure to convert most people they try to convert by saying that only god can convert people, christians are only responsible for introducing people to the idea. as if anyone in the US has not heard of jesus. (I think I'm going to say to the next evangelist I meet "Jesus? Never heard of him." just to see what they do.) In fact, of all the religions in the world, Christianity is the one least amenable to such imposition because of its theology of conversion. uh, yeah.

Humanity is so entrenched in sin worthless! you're all worthless without god! that unless God's Spirit does the converting work Himself, none of us would ever repent and believe. it's not my fault these stupid heathens won't believe!

Therefore, Christianity is actually unique among world religions for the impossibility of imposing its belief structure on others. has he studied any other religions? buddhism, maybe? any pagan sect? Only God convinces people to repent and believe. well, cool, then, just leave us all alone then. we've all heard of your god, apparently he hasn't gotten around to converting us, so go get a hobby.

Stop Thinking of Them as People

atheism, atheist, witness, evangelism, testimony, proselytizing, work, scripture,bible, jesus, ray, comfort
Unless you're new here (hi! stay a while), you know I find Ray Comfort endlessly disturbing. It's the combination of his smarmy self righteousness, his willful stupidity, and the fact that he is the evangelical's evangelist. Seriously, go to a christian message board and ask how to proselytize (you should call it "witnessing"), and 10 out of the 10 replies you receive will all reference the Way of the Master and Living Waters- Ray Comfort.

Which is what makes ideas like the one below so disturbing- lots of people are taking this advice. Lots of people see this as good advice.

How should I witness to my coworkers? short answer? you shouldn't. you're getting paid to work, for one thing. for another, it can lead your employer into legal trouble.

When we interact with people on a daily basis, we have many opportunities for sharing our faith. tell me about it. First, be sure you are respectful to your employer and set a good example in your work ethic by working "as to the Lord" (Colossians 3:23).When others around you grumble and complain, if you have a calm, forgiving, steadfast spirit, it will make an impression. probably as that guy that doesn't like to play along, and would rather kiss ass instead*, but whatever. As you respond in a Christ-like way to angry coworkers ummm . . . unsaved coworkers are naturally angry or something? crabby atheist stereotype? i dunno. and stressful circumstances, people will see a difference in your life.

Always be friendly and courteous, and show genuine interest in your coworkers’ lives. Invite them out to lunch to get better acquainted. Share their joys and sorrows by congratulating them in their good times and offering to pray for them in their bad times.

this is where the advice gets bad. Think about this for a second. If a coworker of mine showed this kind of interest in me, I would assume (a) they had a sexual interest in me, or (b) they wanted to be my friend. Not that I want my coworkers to constantly be fantasizing about me, but I would be horribly offended at this tactic. Think about it. Ray Comfort is encouraging people to treat other human beings not as people, but as marks. As targets. As means to an end.

Would this be acceptable if the product being sold were Amway rather than salvation? Beyond that, should people really need this kind of primer on how to relate to other people? Atheists are just like theists, guys. We have feelings, hopes, dreams, disappointments. We feel joy and pain, love and rejection, and you shouldn't need to be told to congratulate me in good times and comfort me in bad**. If you do need to be told that, well, I don't know what help I can offer you.

Be sure you do pray for them, then follow up by asking them about the situation you prayed for. Well, yeah, followup on people's problems does show you're interested.They will be moved by your concern. No more so than anyone else's sincere concern. If coworkers are discussing what they did during the previous weekend, you can share your excitement about attending church services or a special church event. and become that guy we never talk about off time with. Ask others if they have any plans for celebrating Christmas or Easter sweet Salvador Dali, I've worked with these people; be nonjudgmental of their answer, but be ready (if asked) to explain why you celebrate as you do. nobody is going to ask. we live in a country dominated by christians, we all know why you're celebrating that way. unless you're a Jehovah's Witness, in which case we think you're a freak show.

Displaying a favorite Scripture or a devotional calendar, or reading your Bible during lunchtime, may prompt others to inquire about your faith. it would prompt me to avoid you, but you can try that Bringing home-baked goods or leaving a small gift with a note on a coworker’s desk can sometimes have a greater impact than a thousand eloquent sermons. not when the price of that cookie is a really annoying spiel. We can show our faith by our works. Others may not like a tree of self righteousness, but they cannot help but like its fruit. I can. Pray for opportunities to share the gospel, being careful not to infringe on your boss’s time. "For such is the will of God that by doing right you may silence the ignorance of foolish men." (1 Peter 2:15)

Of course Ray couldn't avoid a chance to call atheists "fools".

*tell me you've never felt that way about a coworker that won't join in the occasional bash-the-boss session. it's called a "bonding experience", people.

**A sincerely offered "I'll pray for you" in response to something bad in my life is not offensive to me. I understand the intent behind it and appreciate that you are thinking of me, and you care.