Who Is This Jesus Fellow, Anyway?

On the one hand, I find Chick Tracts deeply disturbing because they are hateful beyond reason. I find that at local convenient stores and such all the time and feel the urge to wash my hands after handling them. (I throw them away because I do think of the children.)

On the other hand, Chick Tracts are hilarious. There is always that point in the story where the witnessee is all "Jesus- who's that?!" The only people in the US who would have that reaction to hearing about Jesus would be newborns or people who just got off a plane- from Mars.

So Michael Mock makes an excellent point* in his series on Christian evangelism:

Don't believe me? I recently got annoyed enough[3] to actually write out the reasons why I am not a Christian. They're... comprehensive. In order to bring me back into the fold, you would have to find a way to satisfactorily address everything in that post. That would require, among other things, some sort of epiphany - in the original sense of the word, where God reaches down and touches my thoughts - that seems to confirm not only God's existence, but Christianity as the best way of understanding Him. Can you provide all that? Now, every other former believer is going to have their own version of that list. It's not just a matter of offering a ground-up justification for Christian beliefs. You're going to have to start all the way down in the foundation, and work from there.

Does that sound like the sort of job where Sisyphus himself would watch you with a little gleam ofschadenfreude in his eyes?

I love a good Sisyphus reference.

I don't know why, but there is a certain segment of evangelical Christians who seem to think the only reason you aren't currently at church worshipping is because you simply don't know about this Jesus fellow, because if you had heard of Jesus once in your life, you'd automatically start worshipping him. To know him is to love him, to not love him is simply not to know him. There is literally no other reason one could have for not worshipping the Christian god (in exactly the way the witnessor does.)

In real life, I'm not very confrontational, so I generally deal with this in one of two ways, completely ignoring the earnest evangelist, or claiming to be of the faith already. The latter option can get a little dicey if they start asking questions about your church, etc., so I don't really recommend it. Sometimes, I thank them and then tell them they have convinced me to rejoin the Catholic Church. That's fun for the whole family!

Here's the thing, earnest evangelist, you know all those Way of the Master videos you see in which Ray Comfort, et al. claim to have converted atheists, et al.**? That's not true. Those people are not atheists. They belong to a certain subset of Christianity that is very common in the US, common because the US is a predominantly Christian country, in both numbers and culture. These people may not attend church or read the Bible, but they do accept that Christianity is the right way to go and that the Bible is the authoritative word of the Christian God, who is the correct god to worship. In fact, they don't consider any other god to be real, nor do they accept any other religion as being anything other than a confusing curiosity. This group may well be the largest group of Christians in the US.

It's not too hard to convince such a person that your particular interpretation of Christianity is true. You just need to be confident and insistent. Reference the Bible, they don't know what it says, but they do accept it as authoritative. Reference Hell, they believe in it. Reference Heaven, they want to go there. You can "convert" these people all day long. (Not that I think convincing one sort of Christian to be another sort of Christian is actually conversion.)

The problem is, Ray Comfort and his ilk sell this sort of evangelism and "conversion" as something it is not: effective against atheists, especially former believers who are now atheists. We've heard all your arguments, in fact, we probably made them at one point. We've read the Bible. I own 17 different Bibles and I've read every one of them cover to cover (well, not the Begats). I am intimately familiar with your holy book, I just don't think it's any holier than The Lord of the Rings. (And not nearly as well written.) I've also read the Q'ran and the Bhagavad Ghita, and I follow His Holiness the Dalai Lama on twitter (@DalaiLama). Quote the Bible at me and I'll quote it right it back, or ignore you. This isn't news to me.

That's really what it is. This is not news to me. Let me repeat myself: The Good News is not news to me. I have heard it before. Hearing the Good News did not convince me of anything the first 1,000 times I heard it, this time is not going to be different. Yes, yes, I know, I'm standing on the train tracks and the train is coming fast and ZOMG! Hell!!!1!!eleventy!!!

You know what? I am a competent, adult individual and that's a risk I have decided to take. I know, I'm scaring you and you would rather I did not take that risk, but I feel the same way about bungie jumping and sky diving. The big difference is you don't see me hanging out at airports and bridges screaming at people to stop exposing themselves to avoidable danger. I know the danger, okay? I have made an informed decision and continuing to inform me of the risk I have decided to take is completely unnecessary and really annoying.

So ask yourself something: have you, personally, ever been swayed by someone questioning your right to self determination in an annoying fashion? If not, why do you think that anyone else would be swayed by such a thing?

*Actually, MM almost always makes a good point in his posts.

**You would not believe how many legal documents I've typed in the last two days.

I Don't Know What to Make of This

I really don't understand at all. Probably because I don't speak English. And I'm a dog.

Reading this thread, I think I was making the same face my dog does when he's puzzled.

so I've been dropping tracts off around the building where I work even when I go to the washroom I leave a gospel tract there for someone to read. So I went in the washroom yesterday and noticed that the tract was gone and instead was a printed off paper supporting pantheism. It had a website that all the garbage came from and was seriously flawed in it's naturalistic worldview approach (if i can't see it it isn't there approach) the problem is I'm having a hard time finding an article that speaks directly about what is in the article. And was wondering should I type up something or throw the garbage away and leave a gospel tract again?

So let me get this straight. You leave fundy gospel tracts in the bathroom at work every day (doubtless forcing the janitor to do a little extra work), and you're all kinds of freaked out that someone left their point of view in the bathroom instead? You don't see that your tract is someone else's garbage? I guess not, huh?

I can't decide whether to laugh or bang my head against the desk until this makes sense.

My first instinct is to say I'd throw it away.

If I am given "literature" I thank them politely and put it in my bag, then throw it away.

Funny, that's my first instinct, too. Why do you think your "literature" is any different?

Not worthy of debate. Throw it away and keep leaving tracts around for people to find.

AND THROW AWAY. Because we feel exactly the same way about it as you do. Can we stop killing the trees and just quit it with the tracts?

Probably not.

The Weirdest Thing Happened to Me Today

I walked down to the drug store to use a coupon that expires tomorrow and was approached by two young men, one blond, one with a shaved head, attempting to hand out religious tracts and bottled water by saying, "Want a free bottle of water?"

(a) I'm not taking food or beverage from some random guy on the street and (b) no, I don't want your religious literature, please throw away your own trash.

So I said, "No, thank you," and kept walking.

Blond guy starts to implore me some more, Shaved Head grabs his arm and says, "Forget it, she's a witch."

O_o

So, totally forgetting that I have a Jägermonster sigil on my sleeve (see my profile picture), and not realizing what that would probably look like to the religiously sheltered, I assume he is saying "bitch" without actually saying it, and I stop and say, "Just because you replace the 'b' with a 'w' does not make that an acceptable thing to say about a woman!"

That's right, I caused a scene. I could actually hear my mother desperately hissing don't cause a scene! Too late, mom.

Religious dudes back away from me, almost into traffic, and Shaved Head's all, "I didn't- I didn't"

"How dare you call me a bitch?!"

Now people are stopping to watch. Due to the close proximity of the county courthouse, the federal courthouse and the university, the crowd includes lawyers in suits, defendants in suits and college students.

"No, no a witch!"

"What?!"

"You've got a demon on your arm!"

At this point, I'm pretty sure I've confronted a paranoid schizophrenic and I'm starting to feel bad about it, until a woman in a suit standing next to me taps the pin and says, "I think he means this."

"Oh, the Jägermonster sigil. It's from a-"

"I LOVE GIRL GENIUS!" shout two girls with blue hair and pink hair and tattoos and piercings- college students.

That's right, I found two people who love Girl Genius by starting a scene with a religious nutter. And, despite the fact that I am twice their age and do not have blue or pink hair, they think I am the coolest person evah for wearing the pin everywhere. In fact, I am officially "subversive".

Religious dudes still have no idea what just happened.

Why Would They Die for a Lie?

cult, christianity, death, proof, stupid, apologetics, witness, evangelism,

One of the most annoying arguments for Christianity is Why would Jesus' apostles have died for a lie? In other words, Christianity must be true because people have died for it.

First of all, I haven't seen any credible historical proof that the people named as apostles in the Bible actually existed, or wrote anything they are said to have written, when it was claimed to be written. We don't have any original writings and every bit of evidence I have seen tends to be self referential or lacking in backup documentation. For example, I can prove that George Washington existed because we have his original writings as well as the original writings of literally dozens of people who knew him. They all agree on the basic facts of George's existence. We can't say the same for Matthew, Mark, Luke or John. (Never mind why the other apostles' writings didn't make it into official canon.)

What we are left with, in this argument, is whether or not people are willing to die for lies. Yes, they are. This has been proven countless times. Jonestown, Heaven's Gate, the Solar Temple are all proof of this fact. So, if you are making the argument that "People have died for it, it must be true", you need to go find yourself some cyanide Koolaid and a comet, or risk eternal suffering.

Evangelism Without a Script

evangelism, witness, religion, christianity, jesus,

Because, quite frankly, we don't want you thinking on it too much.

I've always disagreed with the Way of the Master style of evangelism. It relies entirely on Pascal's Wager (stupid, could be said of any religion) and the Ten Commandments (not terribly useful if I don't think the bible is any more special than Harry Potter). Apparently, the next big thing in really annoying conversations you will be having with random strangers is here: Evangelism Without the Script.

There is nothing more powerful than a personal testimony when telling others about Christ.

So when Nathan Sheets of e3 Partners Ministry, Inc., and a few others set out to develop an outreach campaign, they decided to zero in on the pure, raw and heartfelt stories of those who have been transformed by Christ, and strip away all of the trappings of Christianity.

"When we're starting a conversation and I'm telling you about all these issues that I've dealt with in my life and I share with you how God has brought me through that, I think that it takes away the bad feelings of 'I hate church,'" Sheets told The Christian Post.

Pure, raw and heartfelt. Apparently, the sound that woke me up at 3 am was logic's death rattle.

First of all, I find these sorts of things wildly annoying because I am chronically ill. If you are chronically ill, everyone you know knows someone that took or did something and was cured and you should try it too! Just try asking for scientific proof that this substance or technique works. Your friend/acquaintance/coworker will look at you as if you just requested break dancing lemurs, and say, "But I saw it! (S)he's all better now!"

Feelings are not the same thing proof. I'm glad Jesus/acai/colon cleanses made you/someone you know feel better, but that's not the same thing as proof, so fuck off.

Evangelism Without a Script is the spiritual version of a conversation I already find wildly annoying. To put it another way: how do you know Jesus fixed your life? Maybe your belief that Jesus would fix your life provided you with the necessary motivation to fix your own life, a psychic placebo effect, if you will.

This is hilarious, though:

Though the celebrity status of some on the site may create a disconnect with viewers, campaign organizers intentionally clothed them in black shirts and sat them in a white chair against a black background.

"In God's eyes, we're all equal so we've stripped out the things of this world that might set you apart as a celebrity versus being a noncelebrity," Sheets explained.

Except their FACES, asshat. I bet it's a little easier to fix your life with $10M than without. Not that I would know.

If Things Were Different, They Wouldn't Be the Same

evangelism, witness, atheism, atheist, stupid, christian, god, bible,
It's really amusing when fundys try to prove god using science. It would be like me trying to convert someone to atheism using the principles of Shintoism. Absurd, but fun.

carrieb, from Rapture Ready, tries to convert us all with the observation that if things were diferent, they wouldn't be the same.

18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse." (Romans 1:18-20) Random bible quotes, always good when attempting to convert those who don't believe the bible is the word of god.

I have been thinking to myself that God, in some ways, is the author of simplicity but in others, he's the author of complexity, that his glory has been made so obvious, so clear, that atheists and non-believers have completely overlooked what is plain in His creation. if it's that obvious, that plain and clear, how could we possible have "overlooked" it? "ignore" I could see, but "overlook"? I believe that He has made his being known so immediately, so eloquently, so transparently, step away from the thesaurus! that the pride of intellectual pursuit inhibits these people's ability to see Him because He is right before their eyes - can't see the forest through the trees. first of all, can't see the forest for the trees. secondly, yeah, yeah, yeah, liberal elites, we get it. The most obvious characteristics of our earth and our existence speak volumes of the power, care and glory of our God. really? is there a signature somewhere i haven't heard about. We have a brilliant white light moon, no, we don't. the moon reflects the sun's light. it is not in and of itself possessing of a brilliant white light. one powerful warming sun and a vision into our starry night sky that resounds in the thought of eternity. the sky? Each of these things is a magnitude of two contrasts - it is? it is in these two contrasts that God so plainly displays his invisible attributes. if they're invisible, they're not plainly displayed. one or the other, folks.

"The heavens declare the glory of God, and the skies declare the work of His hands" (Psalm 19:1) it's weird how much the bible says god exists. i wonder if there's a reason for that?

Imagine for a moment that we live in an entirely different kind of landscape and still have a similar human existence. so, we live on an entirely different planet, but we're still exactly the same? you know that's basically impossible, right? you know that life evolves in reaction to the environment it's in, not some other . . . oh, yeah. It's not difficult to imagine that we could be living on a planet with a permanent heavier cloud cover where we are constantly drenched in mist and where there are 8 orange and dark gray moons orange and dark grey moons? why are they orange and dark grey? you really think the moon has its own light, don't you., where we orbit a two star system wherein there is no distinct contrast between day or night. well, actually, there wouldn't be day and night in that situation. there'd be day and day. Beyond those fixtures in our gray sky, wait a minute, we have 2 suns, but no sunlight? okay. no other glimpses into the heavens are available to us. It could be a planet of constant environs where there is no change of seasons, no balance between ice and heat - everything is simply maintained in a weatherless lukewarm wait a minute, wouldn't "weatherless lukewarm" be the balance between ice and heat? and why are there no seasons? seasons are caused by our orbit and the tilt of the planet, why are there no seasons? and damp state and yet human life is viable. well, sure, but human life as we know it is very unlikely in that scenario. None of these contrasts of Light and Dark when did we start capitalizing those words? and wouldn't it still be dark in a cave or building? would exist and it seems to me, that on that landscape, God might be seen as silent of His majesty. seriously? without our exact setup god is impossible? really?

But on this earth, we are clearly given the two: Day and Night, Dark and Light, White and Black, Dead and Alive, Sleep and Awake - (1) on the other planet, there would still be dark and light, black and white, dead and alive, sleep and awake. (2) what about grey and all the other colors, what about all the in betweens that exist in all of those states? having 2 suns and 8 moons gets rid of all that? all of these are the bare-bones declaration of eternal life with and without God. dark and light prove eternal life? how? To go even further, God created a moon that fits the outline of our sun so perfectly in eclipse - where we see only the shining corona of its power - hope you didn't have your StupidMeter(tm) plugged in for that one. the eclipse is a function of the positions of the moon, earth and sun at certain times, not the other way around. the exact details of size of our moon and sun, their distance from the earth is extraordinary - this is not by chance! and any other details wouldn't be extraordinary? why? does this make sense to anyone?

We're also given a view of space that stretches to infinity, manifesting the glorious handiwork of God, displaying his power for limitlessness - a hint of eternity. sure, whatever. Astronomers will be very quick to say that our placement in the galaxy is one that seems designed for a clear view of the cosmos no, they won't. astronomers are surely appreciative of the view, but they don't claim we were placed right here for some viewing purpose.- we are without space dust clouding our view, and the exact location of our solar system is one that is uncluttered by the glare of close stars. This lends us the full view of other galaxies and stars millions of light years from us. And the more astronomers discover, still more of God's glory is continually revealed to our amazement. or the more scientific discoveries we make.

Our whole existence here is marked by the contrast of two distinct things. and every other thing in between. I'm sure the list could go on forever, but here is the list of contrasts that I considered that directly speak of God's invisible attributes to us every day of our lives. The list of contrasts that the atheists and non-believers "can't see". must not be that obvious then. You'll note that a vast majority of these are the same ones used in the bible to describe all of us - the quick and the dead. wtf?! I'd love to hear of more if you can think of any. stop abusing the word "think". it did nothing to you.

dark/light day/night wet/dry washed/dirty really? those are opposites? alive/dead white/black i like colors, personally saved/unsaved puhlease land/water oh, yeah, nothing in between that. up/down truth/lie that's a matter of interpretation, my dear love/hate that's right, because the two are never combined holy/unclean holy/unholy or clean/unclean pure/tarnished i love this one. the opposite of "pure" is "impure" not "tarnished". pure silver tarnishes very quickly, asshat. inside/outside in the doorway time/eternity beginning/end first/last good/evil hot/cold warm sleep/awake blind/seeing bad eyesight.


sorry, carrieb, your complete misunderstanding of both science and the english language has failed to convert me. better luck next time.

Dispatches from the Front Lines

evangelical, evangelism, witnessing, witness, bible, jesus, tracts, ray, comfort, wotm,
I have long suspected that the standard form of witnessing as sold by Ray Comfort in his Way of the Master series is a dismal failure. (Ray's evangelism "college" costs $150 to attend, btw. Yeah.)

Now, in these stories straight from believers themselves, I have proof of this failure. (Oddly, the believers do not count these stories as failures. They count them as successes. Apparently, simply getting a total stranger to acknowledge your existence is a win for Jesus.)

the lindaman family:

Well, I did it!!!! Twice! First, my husband and I were at a gas station and I just walked up to this girl and handed her a million dollar bill. She looked at me like I just fell off of Mars, but she took it. Second, I was at another gas station, which was full service. I didn't realize it was full service, but God did. The guy walked up to my van, pumped my gas, and when he was done I got to give him a million dollar bill. When I pulled away he was reading it! I can't even tell you how excited it made me. Thanks again for what you do!

1) I believe the expression is "landed from Mars" or "came here from Mars".
2) That's probably the look on my face when people randomly hand me trash to throw away.
3) How was that a success? Basic politeness would make her accept the trash even if she didn't want it.
4) "I didn't realize it was full service, but God did"?! wtf? seriously?
5) Again, how was this a success? The gas station attendant read the trash you handed him. So what?

deanna:

I am very shy, and would never have dreamed I could witness. I have been encouraged by listening to The Way of the Master to start sharing my faith. I now give out million dollar bills when I go to Walmart or the grocery store. God can use even shy people!

at least i don't go to that walmart. i don't like scaring shy people. (apparently she's too shy even for an informative profile.)

danagirl47:

I'm like the friend you described. I am totally itching to share my faith, but I'm so shy I just don't know how. So I usually end up feeling guilty because Christ gave His life for me and I can't even bring myself to talk about it. So I took you up on your challenge last week, and on my very last day I finally made sure I actually had a tract with me and gave it to the K-Mart cashier. It was totally awkward because I didn't really know what to say, but I'm still glad I did it. Thanks for the challenge. Would love some prayer. :)

nothing like involving yourself in an awkward social situation for your faith. still no successes. (and i'd like to hear the story from the cashier's point of view.)

ricardo:

Hola! I work for a Messianic Jewish ministry in San Francisco, CA (I'm a gentile). I've never had the guts to pass out Bible tracts, but after watching the news a couple of weeks ago and seeing Christians get chased out of the Castro District for simply praying, when one of the evangelists on staff asked me the other day if I would help pass out Bible tracts in Union Square I couldn't resist! I stood on the corner for a couple of hours passing out tracts and struck up a great conversation with a really nice elderly Jewish woman. Her and her daughter passed me by at first, but I noticed her take a second look at my shirt which simply says "Y'shua" across the chest. I continued to pass out tracts and I noticed the women looking back at me from about 30 yards away and talking with each other. After a couple of minutes the elderly woman approached me and asked, "Are you here to convert the Jews or the Goyim?" I told her I was here to tell about Y'shua. She asked me the same question again. I told her "I'm not here to convert anyone, I'm here to get to people to consider the facts and make an educated decision as to whether or not Y'shua is the Messiah the Hebrew prophets fortold." Again, she asked me the same question a third time. I said, "Look Miss, I'm here to tell both Jews and Gentiles alike that the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob chose the children of Israel to have a special relationship with, and through that special, unique relationship with Israel, God would introduce Himself to the world and all of mankind would be blessed. I'm here to get you to consider whether or not Y'shua is that blessing, through whom God manifested Himself in human form and makes salvation possible for all of mankind." With that she said, "Hmmm. Ok. Let me have one of those." I gave her one, we talked, and shared a laugh. I wish I could say she asked the Lord for forgiveness, but she promised to read the tract and look into it. God's at work! I love your site; many blessings!

Jews for Jesus! Except that he's not a Jew. I love how he couldn't answer the old lady's question. What does the bible say about honesty? something . . . I forget. anyway, still no successes.

Joe Byrd:

Trish-I just read your Challenge blog--Let me tell you something I do ---I go with my wife to Wal-mart and , go loaded down with Living Waters tracts.. I start handing them out with ""The Greeter", but I don't make myself too obvious because--I'm on a mission. While she shops ,I stroll thru the book section and I start browsing through all the magazines and paperbacks, -but before I put one one down and pick the other up I stick a tract securely inside it. When I'm finished with that task, I go to the card section and place a track in front of a few cards . It looks just like a card-----------------I've done this many times ---They work all week long for you. I've done many different things and I get so many good ideas from you and WOTM. I've shared one-on-one many times and You know what? I've never had anyone rude to me when I do the good person test. I did have a lady put her hands over her ears because she was so convicted. I've still yet to open air but am very close.

Thank you for your conviction and dedication in witnessing to the lost.

Joe

He's on a mission- from god. I love the sneakiness here. He can't just hand tracts to people, he hides them in books and shelves. (I suppose I might appreciate the free bookmark if I found a tract in my book, but it wouldn't convert me.)

and, what exactly does "they work all week long for you" mean, anyway? work how? it sounds like an ad for an internet sales scheme.

I have to say, I see people selling things in front of Walmart all the time- cookies, candy, etc. They do very well. So why is Jesus such a hard sell? And why do these people take such pride, such joy in engaging in an activity that doesn't seem to work? Most people abandon a losing strategy- these people embrace it.

Missing the Point

proof, ray, comfort, religion, god, jesus, atheism, atheist, christian, christianity, witness, evangelism,
It's the atheist anthem: Proof, give me proof!

The believer's response is always the same: Faith, I've got faith!

We can see this play out in Ray Comfort's latest post, wherein he responds to a request for proof with the same insult twice and a plea to faith. That is missing the point.

"God is not based upon observable, testable evidence. He is based upon faith. With God we are unable to make predictions and test them to see if they are correct." Rabbitpirate Reasonable request, Rabbitpirate. If I assert that I have a magical bowling ball that, when let go, rises up rather than falling down, (rendering it useless for bowling) everyone, including Ray, would demand proof of this. If I failed to produce this proof, everyone, including Ray, would reasonably conclude that I do not have such a bowling bowl.

So why doesn't god fall into the same category as my magical bowling ball?

That is not true. Creation is "observable" evidence of the existence of God to all but a fool (not my words--See Psalm 14:1). Oh, yes, Psalm 14:1, The fool has said in his heart there is no god. (That one I've got memorized.) I do love a good insult, Ray, but your magic book written by your invisible friend isn't proof of anything*, nor is creation proof of the creator. God is not "based upon faith." Such a thought is ridiculous. His existence or non-existence has nothing to do with whether or not I have faith. i'll grant you that. proof of god certainly does seem to be based on faith, however. As with human relationships, the means of exchange between God and Mankind is based on trust (faith). trust and faith are not the same things. also, i can prove that the humans i am involved in various relationships with are real. you can meet them, see them, hear them, smell them, etc. we cannot say the same for god.

Anyone can make the prediction that God will manifest Himself to them, and then they can test the prediction to see if it is valid. that's true. it also disproves god, because lots of people have been foretelling the second coming of jesus for quite some time, and nobody's seen him yet. (the jehovah's witnesses claim he did, but it was invisible, which doesn't really count.) There are two stipulations when coming to God. which has what to do with proof of god? First, you must believe that He exists. so, in order to get proof that god exists, i first must believe that god exists? sure, you can see the tiny pink unicorns in my basement- but only if you first stipulate that you have already seen the tiny pink unicorns in my basement. That makes sense. no, it doesn't. Why would anyone come to God if they didn't believe He existed. headdesk Again, in the light of creation, such a person would be a fool. that's probably a record for Ray, calling atheists fools twice in three paragraphs. And the second stipulation is that we have a humble heart. betcha this sets up the "atheists are too proud for god, they want to be god" line. God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble. blessed are the meek, Ray. If you are a proud person, you have already cut yourself off from God by your sins. score! However, all those who humble themselves, repent, and trust in Jesus Christ come to know Him who is "life eternal." It's that simple. circular reasoning is always simple, Ray, that doesn't make it logical or provide me with proof.

Proof fail.

*I love how Ray attempts to hide behind the excuse of "Well, it's not like I said it" when insulting atheists en masse. Here's a clue, Ray, if you tell your wife that other people have said she's fat and ugly, but it's not you that's saying that, it's other people, she's not going to be any less angry at you.

Threatening Fundy Mad Libs

mad libs, humor, funny, fundy, proselytizing, evangelism, witness, religion, christianity, atheism, atheist,
In saying hello to my little friend sparky, The Woeful Budgie came up with a new game: Threatening Fundy Mad Libs.

You see, after trying to convert me (possibly to Islam, maybe to Hinduism) with the standard raytarded fallacious arguments, sparky resorted to the equally standard "I'll get you all, my little pretties!" threat:

Here's the basics: God is God. There you go. It doesn't mattter what you think. It doesn't matter that you're an Atheist. It doesn't even matter that you're extremely smart and logical! The fact is that one day you WILL DIE. And one day you'll stand before God and in all your ignorance say, "I don't believe in you." And guess what? God will reply, "It doesn't matter that you don't believe in me, Personal Failure, I'm still here, and eternity is here..."

As the Woeful Budgie demonstrates, simply replace the words in red with the same part of speech, and you have a threatening fundy mad lib.

Here's the basics: Hill-Rod is Hill-Rod. There you go. It doesn't mattter what you bang. It doesn't matter that you're a spork. It doesn't even matter that you're swimmingly quaint and squishy!The fact is that one day you WILL EMASCULATE. And one day you'll kick before Hill-Rod and in all your tediousness say, "I don't believe in cocaine." And guess what? Hill-Rod will reply, "It doesn't matter that you don't believe in cocaine, Personal Failure, I'm still awesome, and eternity is tropical..."

Let the conversion hilarity begin!

What Is Evangelism Not?

conversion, religion, christian, god, christianity, atheism, atheist, pagan, evangelism, evangelist, witness, proselytizing, bible
9 marks (I don't get the reference) explains what evangelism is- by defining what evangelism is not. (Go ahead, explain to an alien what a cupcake is by telling the alien what it is not. I'm sure the alien will get a really clear picture of cupcakes from that.)


The Impossibility of Imposition. Many people equate evangelism with imposition - someone imposing their religious views on another person as a ploy for power or control. But this idea is mistaken. keep going . . .

To equate evangelism with imposition implies that Christianity is only subjectively true - true and binding for me, but not for others. so it's totally okay for me to beat you over the head with The Origin of the Species? i can't even deal with this "objectively true" nonsense. clearly not, or we'd all be christians . . . oh, wait, these are the same people that don't accept evolution . . . and now i'm reduced to cogito ergo sum. Christianity is not man's subjective opinion. no, it's your subjective opinion. It is God's objective truth, regardless of our subjective opinions. oh, dear.

To equate evangelism with imposition implies that Christians are able to convert people themselves, which is entirely false. this is a "planting the seeds" argument. essentially, evangelists excuse their overwhelming failure to convert most people they try to convert by saying that only god can convert people, christians are only responsible for introducing people to the idea. as if anyone in the US has not heard of jesus. (I think I'm going to say to the next evangelist I meet "Jesus? Never heard of him." just to see what they do.) In fact, of all the religions in the world, Christianity is the one least amenable to such imposition because of its theology of conversion. uh, yeah.

Humanity is so entrenched in sin worthless! you're all worthless without god! that unless God's Spirit does the converting work Himself, none of us would ever repent and believe. it's not my fault these stupid heathens won't believe!

Therefore, Christianity is actually unique among world religions for the impossibility of imposing its belief structure on others. has he studied any other religions? buddhism, maybe? any pagan sect? Only God convinces people to repent and believe. well, cool, then, just leave us all alone then. we've all heard of your god, apparently he hasn't gotten around to converting us, so go get a hobby.

Apologetics

apologetics, witness, evangelism, christian, god, atheism, atheist
In a nutshell, this is my problem with Christian apologetics:

What Christian apologetics actually attempts to prove:

There is a Supreme Being.

This Supreme Being (hereinafter "god") is both omnipotent and omniscient.

God requires/desires worship.

God is capable of, and does, reward worship and punish nonworship.

The correct form of worship is Christianity.

The correct form of Christianity is the apologist's particular brand of Christianity.

I've never seen anyone successfully prove all that. I've seen some arguments for the existence of god that look really good if you're unfamiliar with science and logical argumentation, but what about the last two steps? Proving god doesn't prove that your particular church has gotten it right. Realistically, the arguments from Muslims, Jews, Hindus and anyone else are as convincing as the Christians'. They've all got holy books, supposedly written by god, so that's no help. They've all got holy men and women, holy shrines, holy ceremonies- how is one to choose?

If you take a step back from whatever you were raised with, it boggles the mind.

When Do I Get to Start Scamming People

ray, comfort, way of the master, wotm, bible, religion, evangelism, witness, stupid, jesus,
and calling it salvation?

I talk a lot about Ray Comfort, and about half the reactions I get are "meh- he's stupid, so what?"

He's wildly popular, that's what. Millions of people are paying for his School of Biblical Evangelism (on sale now for $75!), and then using that advice to spread ignorance and bigotry.

This is a sample of the wisdom of Ray Comfort:

If you are familiar with the first law of thermodynamics, then you should be familiar with the second law. It says tells us that it is scientifically impossible for the universe to be eternal. Everything degenerates. Leave an apple on a table for a few weeks and it will rot.

Rotting apples have NOTHING to do with the Second Law of Thermodynamics. Nothing. At. All.

So, other than ridiculous analogies involving rotting apples and the SLT, what does one get for $75?

101 Online Lessons
over 45 Audio Lessons
50 Cartoon Kids Lessons
a student community forum

Plus!
The Way of the Master (book)
Out of the Comfort Zone (book)
Hell's Best Kept Secret (cd)
True and False Conversion (cd)

And when you graduate ...
Bonded Leather Evidence Bible
A Quality Graduation Certificate

So, ignorance, ignorance, ignorance for kids, communal ignorance, book ignorance, book ignorance, cd ignorance, cd ignorance, a fancy book and . . . a Quality Graduation Certificate.

Please, someone help me, what the fuck is a "quality" graduation certificate? Anyone?

When do I get to make millions selling ignorance? Oh, right, when I give up those annoying morals and ethics. Always in the way.

Putting the "Fun" in "Fundamentalist"

religion, christian, christianity, atheism, atheist, god, bible, gospel, jesus, witness, evangelism,
Thanks to ExPatMatt for pointing me in Sam's direction. Sam is a man of many words, and many exclamation points, but few paragraphs. (I'll be fixing that for him.)

God has made it clear in his word that an atheist but a man who will neither glorify Him, nor give thanks to Him! yes, generally people do not glorify nor thank that they do no believe in. unless Sam is in the habit of glorifying and thanking tiny pink unicorns. His thinking has become futile and his foolish heart is darkened! yes, yes, yes, the atheist . . . fool, we've heard that one before. He claims to be wise no, dear, i never claimed wisdom, but he has become a fool! yeesh. He spends his days gathering in his tattered bag a few worthless trinkets from this fallen age, and while doing so overlooks the pearl of great price! i assume he means we're all money-grubbing idiots. nice to know jews have been able to ditch that particular stereotype.

He has most willingly allowed himself to be blinded by the false eternal! eternal what? i'm not even sure about the afterlife. as far as i can tell, you die, and that's that. Deceived into living for a few pleasures in this fallen, evil age, what is it with these people and anhedonia? he trades his birthright for a bowl of soup!

that's an interesting bible story. it's another story of brotherly love, only in this one, the less-than-manly boy wins. Jacob and Esau are sons of Isaac. Isaac preferred the manly outdoorsman, Esau. Their mother preferred Jacob, who made vegetarian soup. Anyway, one day Jacob gets Esau to sell his birthright for a bowl of vegetarian soup. Jacob goes on to trick Isaac into giving the whole firstborn thing to him instead of Esau. For some reason, Jacob is the good guy, or at least Yhwh likes him best.

What this has to do with atheists, I'm not at all sure.

He blindly sends his eternal, immortal soul to hell while he spends his days chasing after the wind! or video game achievements. whatever. He does not see that his life is a mist, a vapor that appears for a little while and then vanishes. i do see that. that's why i'm determined to live it. it could be over tomorrow, i'd better get with the living today. There is no fear of God before his eyes, though it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. is it not fearful to fall into the hands of the nonliving god? and of course i don't fear god, do you fear tiny pink unicorns?

God has given him a conscience, yet he sears it as with a hot iron in his continued rebellion. O_o

now that's an image. i do have a conscience, if we are discussing that thing that makes you feel bad if you are mean to people, but i have a feeling that's not what Sam is discussing.

He is an enemy of God through his unbelief, are an enemy to tiny pink unicorns, Sam? suppressing the truth through his wicked works oh yes, my wicked rescuing of abused dogs and my wicked feeding of the poor.– and although he knows God’s righteous decree I. DO. NOT. BELIEVE. IN. GOD. therefore, I cannot know god's righteous decree. that all who do such things deserve eternal punishment, he not only continues to do these very things, but also approves of those who practice them. what things? and no one, not even Hitler, deserves eternal punishment. the suffering that man can create, no matter how powerful the man, is finite. eternal punishment, by definition, is infinite. how can infinite punishment for finite transgressions be in any way deserved?

Yet God is patient with him, well, until i die, then i get to spend forever in hell. not wishing that any should perish but setting up the process by which i would, according to you, but that all would repent and cry out to Him for salvation. The very fact that these many years he has kept him from peril, granting him each new day an opportunity to repent, is a testament to His great mercy and loving kindness! and what are the deaths during Katrina and 911 or any war? what about toddlers that get raped and people that are tortured? what is that a testament to?

The grace of God that has been extended to us has been extended to him also! "everyone" is the word for this. But this will not always be the case. ya know, at the perishing. One day the hand outstretched to draw him in will be retracted, and the upheld hand that holds back the penalty of the law will lowered, and the atheist will be swept away under the wrath of God by his own iniquity and sins. of course, the only "sin" we are discussing here is not worshipping god properly. it's all so fair.

Dear atheist, if God did not want to save you he would not have sent you a Saviour to be slaughtered on the cross for your sins.

please, please, please explain to me why god had to sacrifice god to god in order to change a rule god made?

If God did not want to save you He would have brought justice down on you the minute you first broke His law. you mean, when i was like 7? or is there an age cutoff for "justice"? If God did not want to save you He would not be leading you to blogs like this, bringing you into the hearing of the gospel. BWAHAHAHAHAHA! This poorly punctuated, badly reasoned blog is an example of god's mercy? we're all doomed!

Dear Atheist, I am no better! i said the magic words, and now i'll go to heaven and you'll go to hell! I do not deserve the grace that has been given me, yet He has saved me and He can save you too! Seek Him now while He may be found, why, does he become inextricably lost at some point? because when you breathe your last breath and step out from time into eternity you will find yourself standing before a just and Holy God the one who will condemn me to eternal torment, but leave heaven to a baby raper who said the magic words. that just and holy god. who will give you what your sins deserve! not worshipping right deserves an eternity of torment. i think someone needs a refresher course in mercy. There will be no excuse, you have heard the gospel, i've heard lots of gospels, which one should i pick? how do i know your particular brand of xtianity is better than any other? how do i know any type of xtianity is better than judaism or hinduism or islam? you have heard of His Son - Jesus Christ - sent as an atoning sacrifice to save you, see above but if you reject that mercy - how do you expect to escape? How shall you escape if you neglect so great a Salvation? *sigh*

This May Explain Some Conversations You've Had

atheism, atheist, christian, evangelical, evangelism, fundamentalism, god, jesus, religion, silly, witness, witnessing
I do so enjoy a look into the mind of a fundamentalist, especially as it concerns atheists. It explains a lot of what I read, and a lot of conversations I've had. It's also tremendously frustrating, because it never seems to occur to any of these people to talk to a real life atheist, and actually listen to what they have to say.

Witnessing to an Atheist

What would you say is the strongest point to bring up to an Atheist? Something that really gets them thinking about God.

The question alone is a fallacy: that atheists have never thought of god. In the US, most atheists are former christians. Most of us were raised christian, and have thought about god a lot. In fact, if you're like me, it was thinking about god, and reading the bible, that was the death blow to your faith.

Earl: The strongest point to bring to the atheist is that scientific method is useless really? so how does this guy think all the scientific advances, um, ever, were achieved? magic? he's using a computer to state that the scientific method is useless. and there is spiritual substance unknown by the uncomprehending unspiritual unexperienced atheist. yeah. i'm going to have to ask for proof on that one. oh, but wait, the scientific method is useless! i should just accept anything anyone says to me is true! it's going to be a bitch worshipping yhwh and krishna- and the other few thousand gods humans have worshipped over the years.

One must experience spirit to recognize it's existance-a spiritual experience which the self claimed atheist will admit he/she has not had. you won't know it's true until you accept it as true. but i won't accept it as true until i know it's true. circular reasoning is just so much fun. Spiritual recognition is by experience of the Spirit not by scientific method. which is useless anyway. this cannot work on anyone.

Rebecca_D: How do they think man ever got here? Hatched? Ape? I would ask how their life is going. okay, all things considered. And then go from there. cause anyone without God, their life is miserable. so, why even ask how my life is going if you already know the answer? how arrogant can you be? Rebecca_D knows exactly how my life is without even having to ask. in fact, she knows how everyone's life is going. move over, Sylvia Brown!

catherine: I also read Greg, that alot of people are Atheist's because of their relationship with their earthly Father, while they were young growing up. was that an actual scientific study or from the back of one of Ray Comfort's tracts?

catherine: God created everything and everyone for His glory. Someone ought to tell an atheist this. I wander wonder if they would get angry about that, I mean, if someone told them. "Of course, I wouldn't care." I think the question was how to convert atheists, not how to make them angry, though that wouldn't make me angry, it would make me laugh.

Rebecca_D: I would ask how we all got here in the first place. Then I'd ask who do they run to when all hell breaks lose and it seems there is no way out. God is my refuge from the storms, he'll hold me, hide me, he would shelter and never deny me. Honestly, Rebecca, I don't know. Of course, I'm not a physicist. I'm also okay with not knowing things. There's lots of things I don't know.

Who do I run to when things get bad? Friends and family. God will hold, hide, shelter and never deny you? What about all the people he doesn't hold, hide, shelter and never deny? What about who are horribly killed, suffer from diseases are raped, lose loved ones, etc.? Does god just not love them as much as you?

jana: just ask them, "Who is Jesus Christ the one you mention when u get angry? I would like to know Him, can you tell me about Him?. Who is My God whom u so mention a lot in your speeches. I would also like to know Him. Okay, being christian doesn't give one the right to butcher the english language, and, that made no sense. i think jana is positing that if you've ever said "goddamnit" or "jesus christ!" in anger, that you must necessarily believe in god, which is just silly. curses are cultural.

Helen 5378:
I think that the strongest point, so to speak, to bring up to an Atheist is to tell them how very much that God loves them. I like to tell them that God knows exactly what they are thinking right at that moment, whereas I do not have a clue. That's quite the non sequitur. Hey, some guy you don't believe in knows what you're thinking and loves you! Oh, really? Who? Santa?

There is so much more, but we'll end with Tanya:
You should start with the begining, God is the reason they woke up this morning.How in bad times if they call on God, that he will make a way. Well, heck, that worked for me!

Okay, did you see the title of the blog?

religion, religious, troll, intolerance, jesus, god, bible, prophecy, witness, evangelism, atheism, atheist, stupid,
Dana (of the no profile profile) is really concerned about us, guys. Really deeply concerned about the state of our souls. Really, really, deeply sincerely concerned.



Well, maybe "concerned" isn't quite the word I'm looking for here.



Lovely people, well, now isn't that a nice change? usually, fundys don't think so highly of me.



It's interesting to me that folks who identify themselves as "progressive nope, never identified myself as progressive, tolerant you're being intolerant of my intolerance!, liberal, secular i am, but i never really use that word, rational now it's an insult!, intellectual hey now, that stopped being an insult after obama was elected, lover' no apostrophe s of the creation what? (instead of the creator can't love what i don't believe in)," take so much pleasure in distorting and spinning the words and belief' no freakin' apostrophe s of their counterparts. "distorting and spinning", huh? this was in response to my picking apart of the odd belief that were the rapture to happen, unbelievers actually would be upset at losing their children. just don't like what you see in the mirror, do you?

So much so, that they begin the name calling..."fundy to separate you from perfectly normal religionists, weird it is weird from my point of view, out-of-touch i didn't use that, retarded i definitely didn't use that word, demagogue you have no idea what that means, do you?," and so on. Real "tolerant" guys. again, yes I am intolerant of your intolerance. "tolerance" does not mean "accepts absolutely anything anyone says as true and perfect." Where do you get off anywhere i can, my dear?

The way I see it, the opposing world views have an obvious ocean between them. One can look at that diversity in view point as a table for discussion, oh, you mean like the "discussion" where you tell me i'm wrong and i will burn forever in hell? that one?or...like the folks here...a battle ground. when was the last time you had an atheist stop you on the street to evangelize? Hypocrisy takes the latter position. oh, noes, i'm a hypocrite, too!

How can those who claim the mantle of "tolerance, liberal, accepting" do so, when in reality, they mock and shout down those of a different opinion?on my own blog, mind you. i didn't go to her house and start preaching atheism. Bottom line is this. Two plus two equals four, no matter if any of you say it equals five. i'm an atheist, not an amathist. and your argument isn't that 2 + 2 = 4, your argument is that anything + anything = GOD. Your argument might be that "well, that is my truth, therefore it is just as valid as your truth." no, that would be your argument.

Guess what? You're flat wrong. Truth is truth. It's not relative. Truth is absolute. Christianity is about truth, not tolerance. mind you, the same person who spent paragraphs ranting at me about my lack of tolerance is now going to tell me that christianity and god are intolerant and that's wonderful. yeah. And, it's not the Christian who is intolerant. It's God who is intolerant. it's not me, it's god is exactly the excuse suicide bombers use, btw. God is intolerant of sin, because He is pure and Holy. when you are linking two ideas with "because" they need to be freakin' related in some way. I challenge you to wrap your mind around that concept. the concept that the imaginary skydaddy is so pure that he must necessarily torture people forever and ever and that's justice?

He cannot abide the evil in this world. then he needs to get rid of it. If you have a problem with that, can't wait to see you argue it with Him, when your turn comes to do so, kneeling (and you will) before the throne of the God of this Universe. but not all universes, just this one. It's about God's Word, not the words of His believer's, who are nothing more than broken people, doing their best to come to Christ, in the midst of their brokenness, and to tell the other's about salvation, no matter how feeble that might look to you. this isn't even fun any more, it's pathetisad. please, learn some apologetics. ranting at and threatening people will never lead to a conversion.

And yes, there is division within the church, just as it was prophesied, and folks, it's going to get much worse. so, which church should i choose. to paraphrase the immortal Homer Simpson, if I pick the wrong church, I'm just making god madder and madder. Apostacy has been prophesied and we're seeing it now.The division gives fodder for those of non-belief, as witnessed by this thread. i kinda fail to see how apostacy was the problem inherein in the rapture post. To be on that side, reveling in the dissension, is nothing to throw a party over. can i hand out cookies? In the end, every knee shall bow, and every tongue confess...that Jesus Christ is Lord. proof? That goes for believer's and non-believer's alike. stop it with the fucking apostrophes! It has been prophesied, and to date, the Bible has been 100% accurate in each and every one of it's prophetic predictions (some 688), in hair-splitting detail. really? prove that. This fulfillment of prophecy goes from the rise and fall of earthly kingdoms and empires, there will be war in the middle east. it will involve sand. to the tiniest details of the lives of individuals, from shepherds to Kings.

Doubters might talk to University professors in archeology, theology, geology, and so on. ya know, scientists and other such people that know things. don't talk to them! These fulfilled prophecies have been substantiantied by secular folks from every walk of science. link? anything? So, look it up and laugh it up.

And, go ahead with the mocking and ridiculing of the faithful. Just make sure you have an ice cold brewski to wash down the locust, and a naked chick to violate i'm a girl, dude. when those days come because the King of kings, and the Lord of lords is coming, and very soon. um, i get to drink beer and rape people when jesus comes back? Hope you'll be able to look Him in the face, without shame, when that day comes.

Maranatha,

Dana

Taking the Crazy Train to Nutterville

crazy, religion, religious, jesus, miano, lawman, evangelical, evangelism, witness, testimony, god, christian, bible,
This guy lives in California:

Proclaiming the Law and the Gospel is not a right given to Christians by men. It is a command given to Christians by God. If you want to earn and exercise a right, go earn and exercise the right to die for Jesus Christ at the hands of the very people who insist you do not have the right to speak to them about the Way, the Truth, and the Life.

So, when did California start executing Christians for their belief? Yet again we have confirmation that what fundys want more than anything else is a return of the lions.

Stop Thinking of Them as People

atheism, atheist, witness, evangelism, testimony, proselytizing, work, scripture,bible, jesus, ray, comfort
Unless you're new here (hi! stay a while), you know I find Ray Comfort endlessly disturbing. It's the combination of his smarmy self righteousness, his willful stupidity, and the fact that he is the evangelical's evangelist. Seriously, go to a christian message board and ask how to proselytize (you should call it "witnessing"), and 10 out of the 10 replies you receive will all reference the Way of the Master and Living Waters- Ray Comfort.

Which is what makes ideas like the one below so disturbing- lots of people are taking this advice. Lots of people see this as good advice.

How should I witness to my coworkers? short answer? you shouldn't. you're getting paid to work, for one thing. for another, it can lead your employer into legal trouble.

When we interact with people on a daily basis, we have many opportunities for sharing our faith. tell me about it. First, be sure you are respectful to your employer and set a good example in your work ethic by working "as to the Lord" (Colossians 3:23).When others around you grumble and complain, if you have a calm, forgiving, steadfast spirit, it will make an impression. probably as that guy that doesn't like to play along, and would rather kiss ass instead*, but whatever. As you respond in a Christ-like way to angry coworkers ummm . . . unsaved coworkers are naturally angry or something? crabby atheist stereotype? i dunno. and stressful circumstances, people will see a difference in your life.

Always be friendly and courteous, and show genuine interest in your coworkers’ lives. Invite them out to lunch to get better acquainted. Share their joys and sorrows by congratulating them in their good times and offering to pray for them in their bad times.

this is where the advice gets bad. Think about this for a second. If a coworker of mine showed this kind of interest in me, I would assume (a) they had a sexual interest in me, or (b) they wanted to be my friend. Not that I want my coworkers to constantly be fantasizing about me, but I would be horribly offended at this tactic. Think about it. Ray Comfort is encouraging people to treat other human beings not as people, but as marks. As targets. As means to an end.

Would this be acceptable if the product being sold were Amway rather than salvation? Beyond that, should people really need this kind of primer on how to relate to other people? Atheists are just like theists, guys. We have feelings, hopes, dreams, disappointments. We feel joy and pain, love and rejection, and you shouldn't need to be told to congratulate me in good times and comfort me in bad**. If you do need to be told that, well, I don't know what help I can offer you.

Be sure you do pray for them, then follow up by asking them about the situation you prayed for. Well, yeah, followup on people's problems does show you're interested.They will be moved by your concern. No more so than anyone else's sincere concern. If coworkers are discussing what they did during the previous weekend, you can share your excitement about attending church services or a special church event. and become that guy we never talk about off time with. Ask others if they have any plans for celebrating Christmas or Easter sweet Salvador Dali, I've worked with these people; be nonjudgmental of their answer, but be ready (if asked) to explain why you celebrate as you do. nobody is going to ask. we live in a country dominated by christians, we all know why you're celebrating that way. unless you're a Jehovah's Witness, in which case we think you're a freak show.

Displaying a favorite Scripture or a devotional calendar, or reading your Bible during lunchtime, may prompt others to inquire about your faith. it would prompt me to avoid you, but you can try that Bringing home-baked goods or leaving a small gift with a note on a coworker’s desk can sometimes have a greater impact than a thousand eloquent sermons. not when the price of that cookie is a really annoying spiel. We can show our faith by our works. Others may not like a tree of self righteousness, but they cannot help but like its fruit. I can. Pray for opportunities to share the gospel, being careful not to infringe on your boss’s time. "For such is the will of God that by doing right you may silence the ignorance of foolish men." (1 Peter 2:15)

Of course Ray couldn't avoid a chance to call atheists "fools".

*tell me you've never felt that way about a coworker that won't join in the occasional bash-the-boss session. it's called a "bonding experience", people.

**A sincerely offered "I'll pray for you" in response to something bad in my life is not offensive to me. I understand the intent behind it and appreciate that you are thinking of me, and you care.

The Closest I'll Get

slacktivist, evangelical, evangelism, witness, christian, christianity, atheism, atheist, ray, comfort, fundy, jesus,
You know who gets me the closest to being Christian? Not because I believe or anything, but because I want to be more like him?

The Slacktivist.

I mention this because immediately after letting through a comment from a very angry Christian about my "post modernism*" and "intollerance" [sic], I read the Slactivist's latest post.

Ray Comfort and his cohorts stay up at night to think of new ways to insult and denigrate atheists, while the Slacktivist evangelizes with wit, wisdom and ultimately, kindness. The Slacktivist is, and you only need to read one post to see this, truly a good man. He truly cares for the homeless, the poor, the sick, the lonely. I imagine that if the Slacktivist were given three wishes, not a one of them would be selfish. He really would wish for world peace, and end to hunger, an end to disease.**

The Slacktivist is exactly what I imagined Jesus to be back when I believed.

Why do I mention this? Because his latest post is about exactly the form of evangelism Ray and others like him practice.

If you're worried about making friends then you'll wind up more concerned with what others think of you than you are with your duty and you won't be as single-mindedly focused as you need to be in witnessing at them. And let's face it, if you're at all concerned about how others perceive you, then you'll never find the courage to be as off-putting as this duty requires you to be. Treating others as friends, real or potential, involves treating them as subjects rather than how you ought to be treating them -- as objects of your evangelism. So stop acting like you're in some kind of popularity contest and get busy proving that you're not ashamed of the gospel.

That's not the most charitable paraphrase of this stock sermon, but it's accurate.

And anyway I'm not inclined to view this particular sermon charitably. It's pointless and ineffective, for one thing. It doesn't work. The poor souls subjected to some variation of this lecture week after week do not go forth to boldy proclaim the gospel in the way the speaker describes. And that's probably a good thing, too, since if they did that wouldn't work. It encourages a form -- and a spirit -- of evangelism that is far more likely to repel than to attract. It offers no motivation other than guilt, and guilt is just a lousy, lousy motivator. Anything we do because of guilt we do, by definition, begrudgingly. There are very few things one can do begrudgingly and still do well. Guilt also tends to produce a self-defensive resentment of those who provoke or remind us of it. You can see that dynamic in the hostility some people display toward the homeless. This sermon sometimes prompts a similar guiltily hostile form of evangelism.

Hostility and evangelism don't mix well.

Yeah, Slacktivist, I've noticed.

Anyway, since I apparently can't convince the fundys that calling me a fool, and railing about my post modernism and intollerance [sic], is very unlikely to convert me, maybe the words of an evangelical Christian will help.

*What is post modernism in this context? I can never tell.

**I would wish for myself not to be sick anymore, to be beautiful and for the Eagles to win the next Superbowl. Not necessarily in that order.

It Wasn't So Much the Post . . .

vera, doug, ray, comfort, religion, atheism, atheist, christian, christianity, witness, evangelical, evangelism, jesus, god, bible,
Ray Comfort is back from New Zealand, and his Raytards(tm) are back from . . . well, wherever it is they go when they're not making the world's most ludricrous comments. (I suspect insane asylums, or John Birch Society meetings.)

Ray's most recent post is nowhere near as amusing as the comments of some of his Raytards(tm), but I don't have room for all of them, so we'll confine ourselves to examining the work of Vera, of VeraandDoug.

This all begins with a comment by Steven J, he of the patience of 20, nay, 100 men.

Ray, you don't argue as though you're seriously trying to persuade us. You gratuitously insult us in petty ways, which is not normally considered an optimum approach for winning hearts and minds. But of course, that you insult us does not show that you're wrong.

Vera responds with:

Steven

Jesus offended people, Steven. (gratuitous overuse of a person's name is never a good sign.)In fact, I was thinking about that the other day. really? wow. The question was asked, "If Jesus were standing here, how would you react?" most christians would say how happy they would be by meeting their savior, but vera takes a slightly different tack. I was thinking that I probably would be offended by some of the things He might say such as my saying, "I'm going to first go bury my parents." what situation does she imagine her savior walking into? He says, "Let the dead bury their own dead." is jesus referencing zombies, or am i not reading this right? if the messiah is referencing zombies, maybe someone should clue him in to the fact that zombies are rarely ever known for burying the dead. eating the dead, yes. Or how about insinuating that I'm a dog. wtf?! Would I have the faith to say, "Yes, but even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from the Master's table." okay, I do know the verse here, but . . . oh forget it. The Bible says that the preaching of the gospel is an offense and foolishness to those who are perishing. wait for it . . . There isn't any way to rectify that because sin is the problem and sin has to be repented of. yup, vera just said right out that evangelism (Ray's stock and trade) is entirely pointless. will that stop her? of course not! There will never be a compromise on this....ever.

Vera then attempts to debate Steven J on evolution, which is a really good way to make yourself look stupid. And moving on:

Steven J (to Ray) You're self-indulgent, careless, and lazy in your arguments.

That wasn't very nice to say. You just said Jesus was offensive to people, Vera. Apparently, Steven J was just being Christlike. Is that not exactly what you claim that Ray does. Perhaps you are personifying your own faults onto Ray. People have a tendency to do this. Says the woman who regularly calls atheists "hateful sinners".

Steven J.: You can't count on everyone in your audience being as impressed by those traits as, say, Terry Burton is. If you're really trying to persuade us, then you ought to try much harder to actually understand the ideas you argue against. And if you're not trying to persuade us, assuming that it's entirely up to us (and not at all dependent on the arguments and evidence you produce) whether we believe you, then it's hard to see what connection your posting and preaching has to your alleged concern for us. I am terribly confused by this as well. Ray has to know, HAS TO KNOW, that this isn't working. I spent an entire day on his site reading posts and comments (do not try that at home, kids) and have yet to see one conversion. And you just know that if somebody did convert due to Ray's website, there'd be a freakin' parade. So, why does Ray do this?

There will never be a conciliation between us in that way. Then Why. Fucking. Bother. and Leave. Us. Alone. and Shut. The. Fuck. Up. We know that God created the heavens and the earth. good for you- what does that have to do with anything? More information is coming in every day to show how He did it. what information? All of it points to the biblical account. no, it doesn't, just ask Stev- oh, never mind. We know God because He set us free from sin. That's amazingly circular. And I bet you still sin. What about you? I don't think you have any idea what freedom is, but whatever. Vera

See, it's not just Ray that's good for a few laughs.

Expect to Be Accosted

evangelical, evangelism, witness, witnessing, christian, religion, god, jesus, miano

Tony Miano, a good friend of Ray Comfort's, has this advice for the fundys:



Depraved Indifference: Being morally culpable while acting with wanton disregard for the life of another. If you refuse to share the gospel with lost souls, then you are guilty as charged.



The "life" of another, Mr. Miano. Not the "afterlife" of another. Feel free to leave us alone.