I know On Lawn thinks he's being all kinds of clever with this, but he's not:
Something to think about...
What will people think of feminism 50 years from now, or however long it takes for a more balanced view of gender issues to permeate society?
The first question will likely be: how could we let it go so far? How could men be seen as the oppressors and sole winners in the gender role system when:
The vast majority of homeless people and prison inmates are men
The vast majority of people who die in work related accidents are men
The only group of people forced to fight in wars are men
What kind of patriarchy protects its men in such a lousy way? Well, it’s certainly not a patriarchy designed to give men all the perks while leaving women empty-handed (women are the only oppressed class in history who had their oppressors go out and work in the fields for them, as Warren Farrell says).
Well, let's see here, you misogynistic spleenweasel, how could men be seen as oppressors? I dunno. Maybe it had something to do with thousands of years of oppression. You moron. Like when women weren't allowed to vote or own property. Or maybe the fact that to this day, most women in the world aren't allowed the slightest control over their own bodies: whom to have sex with and when, whether or not to get pregnant, how often, how far apart.
How about the fact that women are about 50% of the population, but there's never been a female president in the US? Of the 100 Senators, only 17 are women and of the 435 Congressmen, only 76 are women (which oddly works out to 17%, just like in the Senate).
As for the people "forced" to fight in wars- we have an all volunteer army, jackass. Nobody's "forced" to do anything. And lots of women are serving in Iraq and Afghanistan right now. Some of them have even died.
And while you may think that back in the day women sat around eating bon bons while their husbands toiled in the fields, that doesn't reflect even a tiny bit of reality. Women worked just as hard, if not harder because they were doing all their work while pregnant and caring for small children, so why don't you go fuck yourself, On Lawn? (I'm guessing that would be the only action you get, anyway.)
Unbelievable.
"...women sat around eating bon bons while their husbands toiled in the fields"
ReplyDeleteBrilliant.
He makes it sound like 19th century female pioneers were all Simon Legree with vaginas.
ReplyDeleteWell, for one, he apparently failed to notice that "chivalry" is a form of sexism even if it results in arguably positive effects. It's not that men were forced to be the only ones to fight in the name of the country: it's that they were the only ones allowed to. More men die in work related accidents than women because women are deemed to be too weak to even be permitted to have those jobs that have that kind of risk. They are reaping benefits on one end of this, sure. But that's mostly by restricting their freedom in the name of protecting them.
ReplyDeleteAs for there being more men than women in prison, I guess that really is a failing in the idea of feminism. Men and women really aren't equal in all respects. When it comes to behaving like respectable members of society without actively trying to bring harm others, men are much worse than women. They make up most of the prison population because they are more aggression and actually do commit most of the crimes. Also notable is that most of the culprits are young as well (at least I believe that is the case...).
Some thoughts in response to Asylum Seeker's comments:
ReplyDelete"As for there being more men than women in prison, I guess that really is a failing in the idea of feminism."
I'm not sure that's entirely fair. It's my understanding that Feminism is a general initiative to have women acknowledged in classically patriarchial societies for the full extent of their talents and abilities (though this might be an overly idealistic perception). The disposition to commit criminal acts severe enough to warrant incarceration is a psychological issue, and, in my opinion, outside the boundaries of Feminism entirely. To put it simply: it's not women, or feminism's fault that men tend to commit more violent crime.
"They make up most of the prison population because they are more aggression and actually do commit most of the crimes."
Half-true. As I alluded to above, it's a statistical fact that men commit the vast majority of VIOLENT crime. Women are roughly as likely to commit non-violent crime as men, but non-violent crimes tend not to get people thrown in prison, so men make up the majority of the prison population.
"Also notable is that most of the culprits are young as well (at least I believe that is the case...)."
Absolutely true, crime statistics drop VERY sharply for both men and women over the age of 35 - even moreso for violent crime.
"Men and women really aren't equal in all respects."
Back when I was working in fundamentalist and charismatic Christian ministries I used to have a saying that I continue to use today (albeit far less frequently): Men and Women aren't equal, they're different - no better, no worse than the other, just different.
As to the original blog post:
ReplyDelete"Or maybe the fact that to this day, most women in the world aren't allowed the slightest control over their own bodies: whom to have sex with and when, whether or not to get pregnant, how often, how far apart."
I appreciate and agree with the sentiment, but this statement feels hyperbolic to me - full control of women's sexuality by men is only truly prevalent in Africa, the Middle East and India. Don't misunderstand, I find it abhorrent and will agree that a staggering amount of the world's population is subject to this, but I don't think the numbers get anywhere close to "most women in the world" (i.e. 50.1% or greater), 20-25% would seem a more accurate percentage to me.
"As for the people "forced" to fight in wars- we have an all volunteer army, jackass. Nobody's "forced" to do anything. And lots of women are serving in Iraq and Afghanistan right now. Some of them have even died."
Again, I see and agree with your basic point, but there is a small kernel of validity in On Lawn's point. To this date, all Men in the United States are legally required to register with the Selective Service System to be available for conscription should congress reinstate the military draft. Women are entirely exempt from this requirement (whether they like it or not). Furthermore, Women are still prohibited from joining frontline combat-specific units in our current volunteer-only military. Whether these things make you feel better or aggravate you, they are the facts.
"And while you may think that back in the day women sat around eating bon bons while their husbands toiled in the fields, that doesn't reflect even a tiny bit of reality. Women worked just as hard, if not harder because they were doing all their work while pregnant and caring for small children"
Absolutely correct, the idea that men "went out in the fields and worked for [women]" is both fictitious and preposterous. Women have historically worked the fields alongside men for as long as time has recorded, in addition to their domestic and childrearing duties.
"most women" probably is a bit of hyperbole, but not entirely.
ReplyDeleteEven in this country, where birth control is legal, it's difficult to get. It's expensive, not covered by insurance, and any idiot who wants to can refuse to hand it over. If you can't control your own fertility, you can't control your own life.
Anti-feminists and "men's rights activists" cite the statistics that On Lawn notes all the time. They think it's some sort of "Gotcha" that completely disproves the entirety of feminism. What these statistics supposedly prove is that the idea of male privilege is a myth because women have privileges too and/or men are the ones who are truly oppressed in society because of things like the draft (which, of course, we no longer have).
ReplyDeleteThese people have a very cursory and juvenile understanding of feminism and usually envision it as some sort of man-hating caricature of what it is. While many different feminisms exist, there are not many who argue that men are the "sole winners" of the gender role system and, in fact, many feminists agree that gender roles harm men in addition to harming women.
If these doods could acknowledge that men ARE privileged in many ways, they could find some real allies in feminists. Unfortunately, most aren't willing to acknowledge or give up the idea that masculinity and Being a Man is something Very Important (and much more important than being a woman).
Have your read The Myth of Matriarchal Prehistory: Why An Invented Past Will Not Give Women a Future by Cynthia Eller? I am just starting it and would like your thoughts.
ReplyDeleteI haven't read that book, but I would certainly like to. Maybe I will.
ReplyDeleteBig a: " To put it simply: it's not women, or feminism's fault that men tend to commit more violent crime."
ReplyDeleteI meant that statement in a more tongue in cheek in fashion (and, admittedly, I guess "egalitarianism" may have been the better word...the idea that men and women are equal in all respects).
"As I alluded to above, it's a statistical fact that men commit the vast majority of VIOLENT crime."
Damn. I knew that, I swear!
"Men and Women aren't equal, they're different - no better, no worse than the other, just different."
For the longest time I honestly wasn't able to be even admit that they were all too different. But I can accept that they aren't fully equal in every individual aspect, but are equal in overall merit now.
Fannie: "These people have a very cursory and juvenile understanding of feminism and usually envision it as some sort of man-hating caricature of what it is. While many different feminisms exist, there are not many who argue that men are the "sole winners" of the gender role system and, in fact, many feminists agree that gender roles harm men in addition to harming women."
A secular Amen to that.
Back when I was working in fundamentalist and charismatic Christian ministries I used to have a saying that I continue to use today (albeit far less frequently): Men and Women aren't equal, they're different - no better, no worse than the other, just different.
ReplyDeleteThing is, this is the argument that the fundies use all the time. "Men aren't any better than women - it's just that women were made to keep house, and men were made to do all the other jobs. They're just different!" It's called biological determinism. Pretty much every difference you could point out between men and women is the result of society forcing certain behaviors on people.