gun, second amendment, townhall, tea bag, conservative, health care,Let me start by saying this: I like guns. I'm a 100lb, 5'1.5" female, so it's easy to see why: with a gun, I'm bigger and stronger than anyone else. I could make make a 6'8", 400lb man grovel at my feet with a gun.
This isn't anything to be proud of on my part. It's the part of me that hates being afraid, even a little bit, of every man that walks past me on a deserted street. I don't indulge this violent little bit of my psyche. While I have practiced with the smaller calibers of handguns and rifles (note to the weak: a 22 rifle is the easiest thing to shoot. you'd think a handgun would be easier, but with a rifle, you rest the stock on your shoulder instead of absorbing all the kick with your wrists.), I only own a shotgun. I don't keep it loaded. I certainly don't carry it around with me.
I'm not some people, I guess.
Specifically, it is important to understand why people bear firearms at town hall meetings. I’m not sure that everyone is getting the same message. Oh, I think we are: threatening and scary. Is there any other message to be taken from AK-47s?
There is probably not a single message being conveyed by carrying guns to these forums oh, i'd agree there, but i don't think you meant what you wrote. next time, try "there's not one singular message", but one of the prominent ones is that we live in a Constitutional republic in which we have delineated rights and freedoms. free speech wasn't another way to say that? what about your guaranteed right to congregate? not quartering soldiers in your homes? voting- voting sends that message, too. none of the above could result in death would be my point here. What many of the gun-toting protestors are saying, and I know because I have listened to their explanations comma is this: I am asserting my Second Amendment right in order to remind my representatives that they are bound to uphold the Constitution and to defend my rights and my freedom. In short, I am carrying a weapon because it is my right to do so.
so, the only way you feel you can remind your elected representatives of their duties is to threaten them with a gun? don't try to dance around this issue: a person with a gun is threatening. it's the nature of the beast. if you want to remind people of something, you write a letter or call them on the phone, you don't parade around in front of them armed to the teeth unless what you want to remind them of is this: i am dangerous and you should be afraid.
As for "it's my right to do so", it's also your right to stick potato chips up your nose, i bet you don't do that. you can pee on your living room rug, eat your goldfish and sleep in your trashcan. do you do any of that? i didn't think so.
Nobody that I know have has pointed their guns at anyone. Nobody has issued threats. Nobody has fired a weapon. Had anyone done so, we would have been reading about arrests already.
so, if your child was carrying around a knife, and you told them to put that down immediately, and they said, "but i haven't gotten hurt yet", would you say "oh, okay then"? I didn't think so.
carrying a gun to a political event may be your right, that does not make it a good idea. politics is an emotionally charged subject. the debate over health care reform has been heated from the start. adding guns to that mix is introducing the very real possibility of bloody tragedy.
have you ever been angry enough to yell at someone? i have. have you ever been angry enough to punch someone? i have. have you ever been angry enough to throw something at someone? i have. now imagine being in the moment of that absolute rage- with a gun in your hands. that is how people end up dead. fights that would have ended in a black eye or a broken nose at worst become homicides the instant a gun enters the picture.
so, it may be your right to carry an AK-47 into an emotionally charged situation, but that doesn't make it a good idea. and the fact that no one has gotten hurt- yet- doesn't make me any less fearful for the future.
Gun violence in the US (2006):
Homicides: 12,791
Unintentional: 642
61 of those were aged 0-4 years.
In total, in 2006, 30,896 people in the United States died from firearm-related deaths. To put this in perspective, 58,193 Americans were killed in the Vietnam War. The entire war, not one year of it.
Had anyone done so, we would have been reading about arrests already.
ReplyDeleteAnd the thing that they totally miss is that they've carried guns to places where the President, who many, many people, a large percentage of whom own guns, seem to hate and no one has gotten arrested. No one has had their guns confiscated. Their Second Amendment rights have not been violated in the least.
But that doesn't mean a damn thing. If it were possible to Constitutionally take away guns tomorrow and there was a will to do so (the first of which is impossible, the second is highly unlikely), then they'd be arrested for owning guns.
So the entire point they're trying to make is moot. All it proves is that people who have freedom to do/own X and take it to Y are free to do so. It's a useless demonstration, like standing outside with a sign that says, "The Sky is Blue!"
Excellent post.
ReplyDeleteOh, and the NRA does NOT allow it's staff members to carry guns while inside their headquarters in DC. Bloody hypocrites: they lobby with all their strength for every citizen to lawfully carry guns in any place, in any building. So why not their own headquarters????
Geds and scooter: and they don't get it. if you ask them "why do you need to protest your 2nd amendment rights when the very act of protesting confirms them?" or "why doesn't the NRA allow their employees to arm themselves at work?" they'll just go on some tangent about Teh Constitoooooshun and I lurv mai gunz!
ReplyDeleteIt's irritating.
I'm not in favor of bringing guns to political protests for some of the reasons you mention, but a couple of points:
ReplyDelete" person with a gun is threatening"
I don't find people with guns threatening in the slightest, unless they are doing something threatening with them, like waving them around or pointing them at people.
"unless what you want to remind them of is this: i am dangerous and you should be afraid."
Or, the message could be when directed at a government official: I am a free person, not one of your subjects to be ruled & commanded. Sometimes they forget that.
"why doesn't the NRA allow their employees to arm themselves at work"
I'd like to see a link for that. I'm skeptical that the NRA would actually prevent someone with a concealed carry permit from carrying.
"Or, the message could be when directed at a government official: I am a free person, not one of your subjects to be ruled & commanded. Sometimes they forget that"
ReplyDeleteUNRR, I don't think they ever forget that, and it kind of boggles my mind that people convince themselves that elected officals believe that we are subjects of any kind. After all, they pander to us, and we can kick them out. They don't need to be reminded of that at all, much less "reminded" by seeing a bunch of people armed at a rally where people are already screaming.
Leigh,
ReplyDeleteAgain, I'm not advocating weapons at rallies. But I certainly think many elected officials forget (at least in practice) that they are employees of the public, rather that people who get to decide what everyone else should do, whether they like it or not.
It's extremely difficult to get rid of entrenched incumbents sitting in gerrymandered districts. As long as they please their core constituents, they can ignore everyone else with impunity. I can understand why people who feel they are being ignored might resort to stunts to get attention -- even if I disagree with the stunt itself.
sorry, rather "than" in first paragraph, not "that."
ReplyDeleteUNRR: As long as they please their core constituents, they can ignore everyone else with impunity.
ReplyDeleteThe problem is that the people carrying guns to rallies are doing so because of a completely manufactured scare campaign that Obama's going to take away their guns. They aren't mad because of incumbents sitting in Congress who will never be vacated.
They're mad because there's been a crap ton of propaganda specifically designed to work a certain segment of America up in to a frothy, angry lather. They've somehow convinced the 29% of the population that stuck through the George W. Bush years that now, six months in to an Obama Administration that's been, shall we say, less than inspiring on pretty much every issue where it promised change, that all our freedoms are being taken away. There's more anger at Obama six months in to his first term from the right than I saw leveled at Bush six months in to his second term.
Making excuses and saying, "Oh, I understand why they'd feel like that," isn't going to get us very far. We need to get to the root of why they feel that way, and the root cause is a whole lot of dangerous, overblown propaganda.
They could always just vote. My district recently voted out a long term rep, and an entire borough board of directors.
ReplyDeleteI have an ex who is always complaining about how his interests are ignored and how corrupt the system is, etc. In Nov I asked him who he voted for and he said he didn't vote. His vote "wouldn't count anyway". Don't vote, don't bitch about what happened. Don't like it? Vote them out. You can, you just need to get the support. And it's alot better than resorting to trashy or classless or sometimes even dangerous stunts. Republicans may remember what happened when everyone got tired of them at mid-terms, we voted everyone out. We didn't bring guns to rallys or scream at townhalls or assault congressmen physically. That has gone beyond "they don't listen to me" to a whole other level of dangerous activity that needs to be stopped. If they are upset about something then handle it correctly. What they are doing is inexcusable and it isn't fooling anyone, this isn't about any issue, they are mad they lost.
We need to get to the root of why they feel that way, and the root cause is a whole lot of dangerous, overblown propaganda.
ReplyDeleteI couldn't put it better myself, well done Geds.
Geds,
ReplyDelete"the root cause is a whole lot of dangerous, overblown propaganda."
I think that's nonsense. The few people who show up at rallies with guns are already on the fringe. They aren't doing it as a result of any particular propaganda. It's one thing to believe in gun rights, it's quite another to openly bring your rifle to a public rally just to make a statement.
Leigh,
I'm just presenting possible reasons why people are doing what they are doing.
" We didn't bring guns to rallys or scream at townhalls or assault congressmen physically."
Similar stunts are done by extremists on both sides. And yes, there was plenty of screaming at townhalls during the debate over social security reform. There were also guns reported at some left-wing protests during the Bush years.
"That has gone beyond "they don't listen to me" to a whole other level of dangerous activity that needs to be stopped. "
Stopped how? They are within their rights to do what they are doing -- stupid and counterproductive though it may be.
"What they are doing is inexcusable"
Don't you think you are greatly overreacting? There haven't been any shootings, people are just standing around with the weapons.
Megan McArdle at the Atlantic has an article up today making pretty much the same point.
UNRR: I think that's nonsense. The few people who show up at rallies with guns are already on the fringe.
ReplyDeleteSo my argument that it's a recent phenomenon brought about by overblown propaganda is nonsense while your argument that they're just expressing disgust over long-term, auto-elected Congresspeople who don't actually represent them is just fine? Really?
Where were these guys when Bush was in office and they had the same Senator or Representative? Where were they when it was Clinton?
"So my argument that it's a recent phenomenon brought about by overblown propaganda is nonsense"
ReplyDeleteAgain, we are talking about an extremely small number of people, compared to all the people protesting. Those people have their own extreme way of viewing things.
"Where were these guys when Bush was in office and they had the same Senator or Representative? Where were they when it was Clinton?"
When was Bush trying to enact similar health care reform measures? There were gun-toting protesters during the Clinton health care debacle too. See this Newsweek link. Basically there are always going to be some fringe types who do stupid things.
I'm divided on the gun issue, although I think America's laws are far too lax. But then again, I live in a country with tighter laws.
ReplyDeleteIn order to own an air-rifle here, which is basically an overpowered BB gun, you have to pay loads of money every year to keep it registered, own a permit, etc. I don't like that: I think it's overkill, and just encourages people to hide their guns.
On the other hand I think there is no valid reason to take a gun out of your house at all. At the range you are likely to be attacked, a stun-gun, pepper-spray or a baton (a baton you know how to use, of course) would be equally effective and non-lethal.
Put it this way: if I was to see someone in public with a firearm of any kind, it would terrify me and I would leave the area. I have nothing against people owning guns in their own homes, but weapons with the potential to be lethal anywhere near me scares the living daylights out of me.
I don't hold with restrictions on owning guns, provided one can prove you have a reason for them and aren't about to go on a rampage, but carrying them in public is a horrible idea.
"On the other hand I think there is no valid reason to take a gun out of your house at all."
ReplyDeleteI can think of about a dozen reasons right off the top of my head, the primary one being that a gun is currently the single most effective means of self-defense. Having one and not needing it is far preferable to not having one when you do need it.
", a stun-gun, pepper-spray or a baton (a baton you know how to use, of course) would be equally effective and non-lethal."
None of which are anywhere near as effective as a gun, particularly if you face an attacker who has one himself.
"Put it this way: if I was to see someone in public with a firearm of any kind, it would terrify me and I would leave the area"
Why? A gun is just a tool. It does nothing on its own. Why be frightened of an inanimate object? What if you see someone holding a chainsaw? It all depends what someone is doing with a tool that determines whether or not it is threatening.
" but weapons with the potential to be lethal anywhere near me scares the living daylights out of me."
Any person around you has the potential to be lethal. They could be bigger and stronger, have a hidden weapon of any type, or simply be a homicidal maniac. Why the irrational fear of guns in particular, when they aren't wielded in an menacing fashion? In most areas you are in way more danger from cars than from guns.
"but carrying them in public is a horrible idea."
48 states in the U.S. allow concealed carry of guns by citizens -- and the majority have shall-issue laws. Bascially you fill out the forms, and you get a permit. There are people all over the place carrying guns, not to mention all the open-carry weapons of police, security guards, etc. If guns scare you you might not want to travel to the U.S. :).
I see no difference between people like this and the Islamic fanatics they condemn out of the other side of their mouth. The message is clear, "Fear me. Vote my way. Do as I say and no one gets hurts."
ReplyDeleteI have such mixed feelings about guns. I've been to the range and I've even tried to hunt squirrel (just as hard in real life as in Oregon Trail!) but I don't want to own one. I'd rather keep my 3 year old. And yes, I know it is possible to own and keep a gun safely, but my child is a freaking James Bond/McGyver hybrid and he gets into everything. (If he can change the batteries in his toys, he can load a gun.)
ReplyDeleteUNRR - I think your chainsaw analogy is flawed, because a chainsaw's primary purpose is to cut trees/wood, not to injure/kill people. A gun's primary purpose is as a weapon. It's not JUST an inanimate object - it's an object carefully designed to kill people effectively. This country has a history of gun violence, and because national news makes every story feel like it's in your backyard, there probably is a misconception about the proportion of safe vs. unsafe gun owners.
ReplyDeleteTo put it another way - if I see a man walking past me on the sidewalk carrying a golf club, I'm assuming he's going golfing. If I pass a man carrying a weapon, I assume he's going to engage in violence. Guns are scary, dude. They may not frighten YOU, but that does not mean that being wary of them is irrational. I tend to think of my own discomfort around firearms as a healthy level of respect for a deadly weapon.
(But I love knives, used to have a huge collection, and open carried for years.)
"if I see a man walking past me on the sidewalk carrying a golf club, I'm assuming he's going golfing."
ReplyDeleteIf you see a man walking down the street carrying a single golf club, call the police. Trust me, he's not golfing.
Ever since moving to Texas a couple years ago, I've concealed carried some type of handgun every day (with a valid permit of course). Every time I go out, and often on my person when I'm in the house. I don't do it because I anticipate (or even fear) being attacked, I don't do it because I'm under the impression that it's some meaningful act of patriotism, and I certainly don't do it because I have fantasies that I'm sort sort of psuedo-cop in disguise "protecting the flock" (those people, for the record, terrify me more than criminals).
I do it because, like my pocket knife and flashlight on my person, the fire extinquisher in my car, and my expensive-ass spiffy new iPhone it gives me more OPTIONS. A gun is a tool that can be used in any number of situations anywhere you go (most of them, admittedly deadly in nature). The gun doesn't empower, or make me a bigger or better man, but it is a tool that expands my capabilities - and I'm all for that.
[Incoming Minor Rant]
I think it reeks of double-standard to claim that people shouldn't be able to carry guns because they get angry when they're still allowed to drive cars (something statistically infinitely more deadly than guns no matter how you read it). I can think of few things more consistently infuriating than the driving experience (but then again maybe that's because I live in Dallas, haw haw!) and my 205 horsepower, 3300lb car is an absolutely effective deadly weapon. So why don't angry people ram other cars more and run down pedestrians constantly? Simple, it's not in their best interest. Damaging your car costs money, hitting people on purpose is a criminal act with real consequences (jail, fines, civil suits). Much like, oh I dunno, SHOOTING SOMEONE. The fact of the matter is that people are damn dangerous creatures by nature, and the only way society keeps on rolling is that most of us are actually able to keep our emotions in check - no political rally is gonna make me lose my head enough to shoot someone, if it would for you then you, uh, really shouldn't be carrying a gun.
[/Rant]
Getting back to the crux of the issue, my crucial point is that I CONCEALED CARRY. Admittedly in the state of Texas, Open Carry (of a handgun) is illegal, but even if it weren't I'd still concealed carry. There are numerous practical reasons why (that I won't get into) and one big social one - I have no desire to make a spectacle of myself. There really is nothing to be gained by me traipsing about the nation (much less a political rally) advertising my firearms ownership and carry status. The idea that it reflects "independence" is a complete load: independence is not needing to advertise and having no desire for the spotlight. The people open carrying at these rallies are fringe nuts looking for attention and the chance to be heralded by and for their specific cause. These types of people really think if they pull enough stunts where the firearm isn't actually misused, it'll change everyone in America's mind about guns and the people who own, carry, and use them. They don't recognize that it just comes off as one more desperate stunt by a collective that is ever-presently concerned that all firearms ownership in America will be banned tomorrow, regardless of reality or consideration for their fellow Americans.