[trigger warning: food, calories, fat shaming. please enjoy this completely nontriggering otter instead.]
Do you have any idea what a fucking pain in the ass it is to have to eat low fat, no cholesterol? At every meal? (At first, I thought I could have 20 grams of fat in one meal as long as I stayed low fat the rest of the day. This is not true. Not true at all.) Admittedly, having to go gluten free would be exponentially worse, but this is bad enough.
Forget about fast food. They don't sell anything low fat other than the soda.
Forget about ordering in. There's no way of telling what's in anything from the menu descriptions alone, and forget about asking the person taking the order. They don't know or they'll lie to get you off the phone.
Is the food in question cheap, convenient and tasty? I can't eat it.
Hey, I can eat tha-- wow, that's expensive. If I buy this, I'll only be eating 3 days this week. Hey, that's cheap, and I can eat it. Yay! I have to soak it for how long? I was kind of intending to eat before tomorrow. A crockpot? I don't even own one of those.
This is every meal for me since January 4th. So you tell me, why is it such a mystery that posting calorie counts at fast food restaurants doesn't work? Short answer: desperation. Long answer: privilege.
Desperation: There's nothing wrong with occasionally eating at McDonalds, for the average person, anyway. Your body can and will absorb a few extra calories, grams of fat and teaspoons of salt. So the the occasional McDonalds visitor won't be swayed by calorie counts, and they're not who calorie counts are for.
Very few people are eating at McDonalds on a regular basis because they think it's a good idea. What McDonalds is is cheap, convenient, and quick. If you're low on money, time and transportation, McDonalds meets your immediate needs: food that you can get to that's cheap and quick. Calorie counts won't change that.
Large portions of the population of this country do not have access to grocery stores, let alone organic food, and couldn't afford it if they had access to it. If your choices are dinner from the convenient store down the street or McDonalds, um, well, yeah. There you go. I may not be able to afford the food I need, but at least I can go look at it.
Privilege: This is what the FDA thinks the problem is:
As the FDA lamented in a 2004 report, "It may be that consumers do not take advantage of the available information on the food label to control their weight, perhaps because they do not appreciate how the information could be used for weight management purposes or perhaps because they find it too hard to apply the available information to such purposes."
Yes, Official FDA Lamentor, the American public is simply too stupid to "appreciate" what "this sandwich contains more than one day's worth of calories" means. Fat people are mouth breathing morons who are lucky not to drown in the shower. (Don't look up!)
Let's imagine a situation in which a mother and two children have to choose what to eat for dinner. The mother knows she can buy 3 hamburgers and 2 regular fries for $5, not including tax. Hmmm . . . wow, that dinner is not healthy. At all. Well, it's that or walk 4 miles to the nearest grocery story and buy, what exactly, for $5? Anything that would feed 3 people for $5 would likely be as bad as the hamburgers and fries, so why not save a lot of time and effort and just eat the freakin' hamburgers while we're here?
Now ask yourself, "how useful is nutritional information in this situation"? The answer is "not very".
The answer to the "problem" of obesity isn't calorie count posters at fast food joints. It's better access to healthier foods for less money.
Hmmm . . . well, I guess I can see why they're sticking with calorie counts.
*Trust me, the whinging could have been worse. I could have told you exactly what my digestive problems are. You must have good karma!
" Anything that would feed 3 people for $5 would likely be as bad as the hamburgers and fries"
ReplyDeleteAs a member of a family of three, that's not even close to being true. Eating at fast food places, even cheap ones like McDonald's, is still more expensive than home meals. I just bought a 3lb bag of potatoes yesterday for $1.79. Rice -- basic white & brown not fancier types -- is very cheap and a big bag of rice can be used for a huge number of meals. Beans of all types, both dried and canned are very cheap. I just bought canned vegetables yesterday at $.50 a can. Fresh vegetables are usually expensive, but some are not. I got a good-size bunch of carrots for $2. Chicken, if you are very selective and buy manager's specials, can be had relatively cheaply. I bought a big package of drumsticks for 2.74. That's multiple meals worth of meat for our family of three.
It takes time and effort, but decent food staples to provide reaonably health meals can be found for not that much money -- certainly way less than eating at McDonalds. The things that cost a lot are prepackaged items, most meats/fish other than chicken, and most fresh produce. Those do have to treated as luxury items, eaten in small quantities, or bought on sale.
When my wife lost her job after a stroke, and then I got laid off a year later, I learned how to eat cheaply and still keep it relatively balanced and healthly. If you have to watch every penny, buying fast food is one of the worst things you can do. Although we are now in better financial shape, our daily grocery expense averages $20/day -- that's for all three of us, and includes non-food grocery items, fresh fruit such as apples, grapes and bananas, and a moderate amount of meat.
Aw, man! Look at that otter! I can practically hear him crying for sardines from here! He's all, "Ehn! Ehn! Gimme a sardine! Place sardine in mouf! Ehn!"
ReplyDeleteUNRR, you are being so privilege blind, I am now wondering if large amounts of the population is invisible. Reread what I actually wrote and try for comprehension.
ReplyDeleteHint: without a car and without a grocery store within 10 miles (i.e., exactly how millions of Americans are living right now), how would I ever get your fabulous deals on chicken?
UNRR I think you missed the point...
ReplyDeleteYou say:It takes time and effort
PF says: If you're low on money, time and transportation, McDonalds meets your immediate needs
You say:our daily grocery expense averages $20/day -- this indicates to me you have access to a grocery store. Please correct me if I am wrong.
PF says:Large portions of the population of this country do not have access to grocery stores.
And: Well, it's that or walk 4 miles to the nearest grocery story.
If you have access to terrible (or no) grocery stores there isn't anything you can buy better than the hamburgers and fries. Some people do not have enough time to get to grocery stores and cook those meals. I think we need to review this:
Yes, Official FDA Lamentor, the American public is simply too stupid to "appreciate" what "this sandwich contains more than one day's worth of calories" means. Fat people are mouth breathing morons who are lucky not to drown in the shower. (Don't look up!)
I am pretty sure there is some sarcasm in here.
P.S. Never commented before but you clearly address all these points adn I HAD to point it out.
Yep, if I didn't have a car then I'd have to bike or heel-toe it to the grocery store (walking round trip would take 2 hours and that includes blitzing through shopping). A friend of mine lives in the city and uses the bus, but that can be physically demanding, too.
ReplyDelete"What McDonalds is is cheap, convenient, and quick." - where I live, McDonalds is expensive compared to, well, basically anything else, probably with the exception of Burger King or KFC, which fall under the same category of American-style food venues (yes, people do think about them that way here). To give you an example, one Big Mac meal at McDonalds in my city (in which you get fries and a Big Mac that's probably enough for a four-year-old, but will leave anybody above that age still hungry) costs the same amount as the full three-course lunch (soup, main course and dessert) delivered by the catering company that me and my colleagues like to order from. McDonalds does not deliver, so we have to either drive there (for those who have a car) or to walk a few miles (for those, like myself, who don't), as opposed to the catering company who delivers free for any order larger than 3 items. The only reason why people actually go to McDonalds is that it's "posh" AND they host kids` birthday parties for those parents who don't want to bother (even though it's losing ground to local venues fast on that one, too).
ReplyDeleteAnd just to spite you a bit even further (sorry! please don't smite me when you become Empress of the Whole World (tm)), the cheapest food is not even at the grocery store, but at the farmers` market (our city has 4 of them, if I remember correctly). And many people don't go there because "it's not convenient enough" - I guess one couldn't be bothered to move 3 more meters to the next aisle to get cucumbers too, I mean, why the effort when they can go to the superstores and get items at 3 times the price, half the quality (at best!), but hey, at least it's in the same place!
You draw whatever conclusions you want out of my comment, please.
"UNRR, you are being so privilege blind, I am now wondering if large amounts of the population is invisible. Reread what I actually wrote and try for comprehension."
ReplyDeleteI obviously read and comprehended what you wrote, and your concept of what constitutes "privilege" renders the word utterly meaningless. I responded to a specific point where you were incorrect in detail. If you take issue with any of my comments, feel free to address them.
Canadian,
ReplyDelete"You say:It takes time and effort
PF says: If you're low on money, time and transportation, McDonalds meets your immediate needs"
Almost everyone is low on time. And I work with people who don't have cars. They manage to get to grocery stores or other food suppliers on the bus.
"You say:our daily grocery expense averages $20/day -- this indicates to me you have access to a grocery store. "
I use the grocery store only for what I can't get at Walmart. The Walmart I shop at is over 10 miles away. There is bus service that goes there, although not from the town I live in.
"PF says:Large portions of the population of this country do not have access to grocery stores."
I seriously doubt the validity of that statistic. Define "access."
"If you have access to terrible (or no) grocery stores there isn't anything you can buy better than the hamburgers and fries."
I've been in many areas of the country, including major cities and have never seen an area where that is true. Even if there are no major grocery stores there are delis, bodegas and other small markets. If you live in a poor, crime-ridden neighborhood of the city that has none, bus service goes to other areas of the city that have them.
PF,
Sorry, I missed your specific response.
"Hint: without a car and without a grocery store within 10 miles (i.e., exactly how millions of Americans are living right now), how would I ever get your fabulous deals on chicken? "
You might not get as good a deal, but if you are selective you can still get decent prices even at smaller markets. The grocery store that I shop at is exceedingly expensive most of the time, to the point that I avoid it as much as possible. But it does have some good deals if you are careful shopping.
Btw, the idea that having a car in America constitutes some sort of privilege is completely irrational -- unless you are talking about some sort of rich kid who gets handed a BMW by his parents. People have cars for the same reason they have apartments, furniture, phones and other items they use -- because they worked to get enough money to afford them. Some people don't need cars, but for others they are a necessity.
Groceries in Detroit
ReplyDeleteI did some quick research and found that Detroit is apparently the worst city in the country as far as access to grocery stores. But as bad as it is, if you read the above story you will note that it is nowhere near the point where the only option is eating at McDonalds.
Rigor: India, huh?
ReplyDeletePF: Actually, you'll find lots of crock pots available in thrift stores, because people don't seem to appreciate them.
However, you can monitor every ingredient you put in it, and you can throw it all in there just before you leave for work, let it cook on low all day, and you come home to a prepared meal.
As for recipes, those same thrift stores, used book stores, and the internet are all happy to help out.
Trust me on this. (Heh...) Been broke all my life, wife has PKD (so, dietary issues) - once you've gotten used to them, there is nothing bad about the crock pot.
All righty then. The following post is about a year old, but the logic is still crisp and fresh as the day it was picked from the vine.
ReplyDelete"If only poor people understood nutrition!"
I find it hard to weigh in on this topic with any sense of normalcy, so I'll let Michelle do it for me.
"I find it hard to weigh in on this topic with any sense of normalcy, so I'll let Michelle do it for me. "
ReplyDeleteI read it. It makes a couple decent points, but it boils down to the usual excuse-making about why people can't take responsibility for making changes that would be to their own benefit. Just one example...
"choosing the Ensure over a chocolate bar or bag of chips might make logical sense, and you might even do that sometimes to ensure you don’t end up with some horrific nutrient deficiency. But there’s one important point I forgot to mention about Ensure and Boost: not super tasty.
So, when it comes down to it, you’re likely to choose the tastier option"
She writes that and then goes on to say that if you make that choice it isn't because you are stupid, ignorant or lazy. That's obvious nonsense. Of course you make that choice either out of stupidity or ignorance.
If you don't get enough nutritional food, and you know that, choosing to eat some junk, when you have access to something better for the same cost, simply because it tastes better is indeed stupid. If you make that choice because you don't know it would be better to have the Ensure, then you are ignorant. So it's either stupidity or ignorance.
I have to eat a high-fiber diet. If I eat candy bars instead of fiber-one bars because they are cheaper and taste better, wouldn't that be stupid of me? If I didn't know that candy bars aren't loaded with fiber, wouldn't that be ignorance?
UNNR:
ReplyDeleteyou just said your DAILY grocery bill, for 3 people, was $20.
i tell you true - i can, and HAVE, fed 3 people 3 meals a day, WITH FAST FOOD, for $10.
that's just ONE point.
i can't get to a grocery story. there isn't a bus stop 20 feet from my front door - it's 1/4 of a mile away. i'm not ABLE to walk more than about 30 feet, and i have to get TO my front door.
even if a bus stopped at my front door, i couldn't get IN it. there *are* "handicapped* busses here... and it costs $750/year to use them. i don't HAVE $750 a year.
but lets say i can somehow grocery shop.
a can of green beans, or corn, or pretty much ANYTHING, is a $1.59 at my grocery story. the "fresh" vegetables...aren't. chicked in almost $4 a pound - and that includes bone.
not that *I* am able to cook it, but lets say we're talking about some other poor person in this neighborhood who CAN. cooking takes time - and i don't know ANYONE who is working who has the time AND THE ENERGY to cook after all the hours they work just to keep body and soul together.
now, this doesn't mean there aren't SOME - people who have cars and can afford to drive the 15 miles to the grocery store where things are a bit cheaper and better. which, btw, takes MORE time.
and honestly, when you're POOR - not "i can't go to the movies this week" poor, but "which will be harder to live without right now - electricity or water" poor, you're working 2 jobs because childcare eats SO MUCH of your money, and taking care of your kids when you aren't working and keeping the house clean enough that CPS won't take them away... no. there REALLY isn't time to grocery shop and cook if one wants to get enough sleep to not die of exhaustion.
"i tell you true - i can, and HAVE, fed 3 people 3 meals a day, WITH FAST FOOD, for $10."
ReplyDeleteIf you eat 1 thing off the dollar menu per person three times a day, then yeah, that's $9. But I wouldn't consider that a meal - more like a snack.
"i can't get to a grocery story. there isn't a bus stop 20 feet from my front door - it's 1/4 of a mile away. i'm not ABLE to walk more than about 30 feet, and i have to get TO my front door."
Obviously if you are poor and disabled, that's a far different situation than being healthy and poor. My comments weren't directed at those who are physically incapable of doing things like walking, shopping and cooking.
"not that *I* am able to cook it, but lets say we're talking about some other poor person in this neighborhood who CAN. cooking takes time - and i don't know ANYONE who is working who has the time AND THE ENERGY to cook after all the hours they work just to keep body and soul together."
I'm sorry, but that's just a ridiculous assertion, or based on total ignorance. Basic cooking is neither difficult nor time consuming, and requires minimal energy. Again, if you are disabled that's one thing. But for those who are not that's just a silly excuse.
"now, this doesn't mean there aren't SOME - people who have cars and can afford to drive the 15 miles to the grocery store where things are a bit cheaper and better. which, btw, takes MORE time."
Again, there are plenty of people who can also take the bus to cheaper grocery stores. I know some of them. Just because you require a special, expensive bus for disabled people doesn't make you representative of the entire population.
"and honestly, when you're POOR - not "i can't go to the movies this week" poor, but "which will be harder to live without right now - electricity or water" poo"
I've been in exactly that situation with bills unpaid and possible eviction looming, so I know you are incorrect. If you think eating decent food is important, you have to make time to see that it happens. I'm not saying it's convenient or easy, but it can be done. If you have time to go to McDonalds and stand in line at meal times, then you have time to cook something that's better than most of the stuff you are going to get at a fast food place.
Nameless Cynic: Actually, it's dead center Transylvania, but thanks for the stereotype, though. And no, we don't have vampires, or transsexual mad scientists, for that matter. Or was it only transvestite mad scientists? I can't remember...
ReplyDeleteI know this comment thread is pretty much toast (see what I did there) at this point, but I feel compelled to inset a link to Adam Drewnowski's work on the intersection of social class & food. There really is more than wishful-thinking, privilege-blind, self-determinism, makebetterchoiceslikeIdid-land going on.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.ajcn.org/content/87/5/1107.abstract
Rigor;
ReplyDeleteshe was making a guess, not going for a stereotype. further, your assumption that she [or any of us] would automatically jump to "Translvania! oooooooh! Vampires! and Rocky Horror Picture Show" is either supposed to be funny and failed, or is a bit... lacking in knowledge of how we'd act and think, to the point of being almost insulting.
UNNR:
Taco Bell, actually - even now, with prices up, tacos and bean burritos are 69cents. two tacos is a meal; about 1 and 1/2 burritos is a meal
but i do something a bit different, for me, anymore. Pete does whatever for food - we don't really do food stuff together. I, on the other hand, will get Panera's value meal thingy, where you get soup, sandwich and "side" for 5.99 - and that's 3 meals for me. sometimes 4, depending on how much of anything they decide to give me [there's a minimum small amout of everything, if i'm given said minimum, 3 meals - but often, they give bigger, and that's 4 meals, or even 5]
i also think you're ignoring single parents. those who work 2 jobs [i know many] and their kids are fed twice a day by daycare, but mom/dad only HAS an hour to get home, feed them dinner, change, and get back to other job - at which point, since it's probably NOT a "peak time" at any random fast food, it *IS* quicker and easier and not any more expensive to buy cheap fast food. bcuz mom sure as hell doesn't have time to come home and spend 30 minutes cooking, and she wants at least TRY to look at her kids without distraction before going back to work.
i think my issue is you're judgeing when you haven't been there - and you haven't, you mention your partner [and her illness as the reason for your budget woes] even if YOU'RE the one with the 2 jobs, you aren't being compelled to take those 30 minutes to give the ONLY parenting your child[ren] will be given that day - your partner does it. at the very least, she's AROUND, ya know?
in single parent homes, there's LIMITED time. in almost every way.
This, so damned much. I just wanted to let you know I name dropped you in my post because of this excellent post, and I hope that's ok. If not let me know and I will edit accordingly.
ReplyDeletehttp://ppbloggers.wordpress.com/2011/03/16/another-post-on-food-obesity-and-the-big-liberal-privilege-blindspot/
Oh and, yeah. Erasing the poor, the really poor, the disabled, the marginalized and moving the goal posts to be all "no, but I'm talkin' bout HEALTHY lazy fat people!" Tchach. No patience.
ReplyDeleteI am also so over the sneaky sexism of these demands to cook and garden, because you know who is supposed to get her ass back in the kitchen/garden.
And also, not everyone is even literate. How the hell do you make informed choices about...anything if the system has failed you so badly that you cannot read well?
Ergh, wev I won't rant here, you can to my blog for that.
I just wanted to say that I appreciate this post and agree wholeheartedly.
denelian,
ReplyDelete"Taco Bell". Ok, didn't think of Taco Bell since McDonalds was the example given in the post. All fast food isn't created equal anyway. I don't think it's impossible to eat relatively healthy at fast food places if you are very selective, but in general it isn't cheaper than buying and preparing your own food.
As to single parents... I'm not ignoring them. Everyone's circumstances are somewhat different, even poor people. Some single parents also have people that can help them out, such as a relatives and even older children. Some don't. Some have many kids, some have none.
As to time... If you don't have a car, and you have to walk the kids to and from the fast food place, that takes time too, as does standing in line. For many things that you can prepare, the time probably evens out. Plus you have to control the kids in public, which interferes with your own eating.
You say I'm judging situations I haven't been in. I'm responding to specific points with specific arguments. They aren't meant to cover every single instance and possibility. The reference to my own situation was to make the point that I am familiar with what it is like to not have enough money, limited time, and a need to somehow have decent meals. Your situation is different than mine, and you don't know all the details of what I have to do anymore than I know yours.
you're making the assumption that one TAKES the kids there. where i live, there's 2 mcdonalds, 2 taco bells, 2 wendys, a subway, a rallys, a quiznos... i don't even KNOW what all, ALL on the bus route home. as in, most places the bus will drop you off, there's a fast food place.
ReplyDeletethe parents i know pop into the restraunt, buy the food, take it home to their kids. total time "wasted", on average, is 5 minutes.
if one lives in a place with bus lines, there's fast food all over the place. now, they may need to buy it BEFORE they get on the bus [i know lots of people who do that, too] but either way, they're taking it HOME and wasting as little time as possible
"you're making the assumption that one TAKES the kids there"
ReplyDeleteYes, I was making that assumption.
"the parents i know pop into the restraunt, buy the food, take it home to their kids. total time "wasted", on average, is 5 minutes."
5 minutes? Yeah right. Do the buses in your city magically appear exactly when you need them? Are they always on time? They never get delayed by traffic situations or lights? There aren't any lines for food? The food ordered always appears instantly? Your buses and fast food places must be a whole lot better than the ones I'm familiar with.
I can see where there might be situations where it could be faster, such as if you get out of work at 430 but your bus doesn't come until 445. If there's a fast food place right near work you can pick up some food, and then get on the bus. Since you aren't going anywhere until 445 anyway, there's no extra time used.
But I'm not sure why its necessary to pretend that making something is just so difficult or time-consuming compared to getting fast food, because it isn't. We aren't talking about producing some sort of gourmet meal, just basic staples.
well - lets take an "average" meal that one would make that's quick and easy - Hamburger Helper.
ReplyDeleteit takes 1 pound of ground beef. and the box. and milk.
you have to "brown" the hamburger, 5+ minutes. call it 5. "
drain it.
add water and milk, plus contents of box.
stir every 2 minutes for 10+ minutes [hell, some of them are 20 minutes!] then let "sit" for another 5
thats 20 minutes for a "complete" meal, presuming you've got a wuick nuked veggie on the side.
whereas, around here, the busses run every half our between 7am and 9pm - and i don't know ANYONE who doesn't either get ON a bus right by fast food, or OFF the bus right by fast food [and most people i know, it's "off the bus there's 3 or 4 fast foods within a block of the bus stop]
also, cooking is EFFORT that's real - do you want to cook, or hold your kid? unless said kid is REALLY light, you can't do both...
I actually agree with you that your hamburger helper example is a fair amount of work. I try to avoid cooking things that make me stand in front of the stove stirring something for 10+ minutes, unless I am really motivated to cook, or have plenty of time.
ReplyDeleteBut on the other hand, I don't count wait time as cooking work since I'm not doing anything and can leave the kitchen to deal with other stuff. In fact, I usually try to cook food that requires minimal prep, then goes in the oven or a pot on the stove and will be done after a certain time.
Also even if you do have to put forth more effort and time than you would like, depending on what you make you can cook an amount that produces more than one meal. Leftovers can then be zapped in the microwave for a very fast and easy meal, or frozen for later use.
As for the situation with kids... If you are concerned that your kids eat healthier than just fast food, you find a way to put the kid down for the time necessary to do the cooking. Why would you look for reasons not to, instead of for ways to accomplish your goals?
When you are pressed for time and energy it requires planning and discipline to not take the easy short-cuts all the time. Maybe you pick a couple days when you have a bit more time and/or help and choose to cook on those days, and cook enough to have plenty of leftovers. Then on other days you heat them up for quick meals, and you fill in on the really bad days by grabbing some fast food. I don't think there's a one-size fits all way to do it, but it depends on each individual situation.
I think that shopping by bus is more difficult than cooking, since you can only buy what you can carry. So it requires much better planning than if you have a car available and can stock up with a large amount of items. But it can be done. I know people who do it all the time.
honestly, i can't think of anyone who DOESN'T work this way. i don't know of a single person who feed their kids fast food every day - it's more like a couple times a week.
ReplyDeletei probably eat fast food more than anyone else i know, because i'm not capable, most days, of even nuking something to eat, and Pete isn't willing to make me some but IS normally willing to grab something on the way home. it's... i don't eat a lot, actually - i'd rather not eat, most days, than eat yet ANOTHER bean burrito [or whatever]
*shrug* the thing that i was sort of arguing against is that it appeared you were saying that one is BAD if they EVER eat fast food, or at least BAD if they eat it, say, two or three times a week. but - that's how life works, often.
[i know a woman who lost her job for taking her son to the ER after he'd been hit by a car while riding his bike. or, rather, for just dropping him off and then LEAVING him and going to work - never mind that he is EIGHT and leaving him would have been illegal. Ohio's an "at-will" state - you can be fired at any time for any reason unless you have a contract - and MOST jobs don't come with contracts. think what would have happened if she'd come in late because she made dinner on the night when she only had an hour between jobs? it's cruel, the absolute lack of workers rights that most people have... sigh]
"*shrug* the thing that i was sort of arguing against is that it appeared you were saying that one is BAD if they EVER eat fast food"
ReplyDeleteOf course not. I'm not anti-fast food. My argument is that overall it is cheaper and healthier, and really not that much more difficult to cook your own food, at least a majority of the time.
" or at least BAD if they eat it, say, two or three times a week."
Depending on what it is, I don't think that in general its a great idea to eat it too often, particularly if that's what the kids are eating. And I do think that many people (and not just poor people) are in fact ignorant when it comes to food & cooking, and prone to to take the easy short-cut all too often. Many others just don't care, and eat what they like without regard to health. It's not something they worry about about, especially if they grew up eating a bunch of junk themselves.