Sunday, May 1, 2011

That's . . . Contradictory

These people have never heard of Jesus. Lucky them.

This question comes up a lot in Christian circles: If everyone has to accept Jesus Christ as their lord and savior to get into Heaven, what about people who have never heard of Jesus or the Bible? Do they go to Hell? It doesn't seem fair at all.

Keep in mind, a tribe living in the jungles of Brazil has never had contact with the rest of the world. Therefore, logically, they have not had any opportunity to hear the gospel. None. Any attempt to share the gospels would be genocide as they, like the indigenous peoples of what is now the US, probably have no immunity to common viruses we all carry.

The answers to the question are hilarious, illogical and utterly contradictory to Matthew 28:19-20 a/k/a "The Great Commission:

19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.

Anyway, here we go, what happens to Brazilian indigenous tribespeople if they don't get hold of a Bible soon:

Answer: All people are accountable to God whether or not they have “heard about Him.” The Bible tells us that God has clearly revealed Himself in nature (Romans 1:20) and in the hearts of people (Ecclesiastes 3:11).

Really? Then why evangelize at all? Why all the pamphlets and websites and home visits and such?

The problem is that the human race is sinful; we all reject this knowledge of God and rebel against Him (Romans 1:21-23). If it were not for God's grace, we would be given over to the sinful desires of our hearts, allowing us to discover how useless and miserable life is apart from Him. He does this for those who continually reject Him (Romans 1:24-32).

Or, you know, sends them to hell.

In reality, it is not that some people have not heard about God. Rather, the problem is that they have rejected what they have heard and what is readily seen in nature.

So, those indigenous persons who have had no contact with the outside world have heard of Jesus? How? I suspect the person who wrote this is simply unaware that there are people who have had no contact with the world. You know what I googled to get that link? "People who have had no contact with the outside world". It's 2011, figure out the internet already.

Deuteronomy 4:29 proclaims, “But if from there you seek the LORD your God, you will find him if you look for him with all your heart and with all your soul.” This verse teaches an important principle—everyone who truly seeks after God will find Him. If a person truly desires to know God, God will make Himself known.

Considering the eternal torment sure to follow, shouldn't god be the one all hot to find us? Also, if you are unaware that such a god exists, why would you be looking for him with all your heart and soul? That would be like a child from a famine stricken county desperately searching for a Williams & Sonoma catalog.

God is very clear in His Word that He reveals Himself to everyone, they just need to follow up on what they see in the creation, and what they feel in their conscience, as a result of His laws being implanted or written on their hearts. So often people will accuse God of being unjust due to so many people being in countries where the gospel isn't widely available. God is 'perfectly' just; because of this, our standard of justice is not as high as His. If fallen, sinful humans think they have a quarrel with God because of their perception of His supposed 'unfairness', they better think again. It just shows that they don't know Him.

lol wut? That's . . . nonsensical. Just wombat bicycle running tall book would. I'd fisk* it, but honestly, I have no idea what this person is trying to say.

Isn't it also amazing that unsaved or saved, at the Judgements, He deals with each person, every person that has ever been born in the whole of history, individually! It is amazing show of love to me, even as he must condemn, that he considers each person specifically when delivering His verdict. There will not be one person who has ever lived that will go into eternity without knowing precisely why the judgement was rendered.

Somehow, I don't think that's going to be much comfort to the people being tortured by demons for all eternity.

Imagine that! For all the unsaved, He could have just issued a blanket statement like "You didn't believe" and wave His hand and be done. But, no every person will still meet God face to face! I know it is a terrible thing for the unsaved, but it just reinforces His love to me, that even if you reject Him, even when He knows that the individual before Him must be condemned, He takes the time to personally judge each one. If He didn't love all humanity, I don't think He would do that. What an amazing Father we have!!!!!

See, now I would consider forgiveness to be evidence of love, but apparently I've been doing the love thing wrong all these years. Which makes me very concerned for this person's children, btw.

Well I will try to sum this up as best as I can:

Everybody is created with the knowledge of The Lord, which is embedded in them. Now whether or not people accept Him, is another issue all together. I personally don't agree with the 'But I didn't know any better' excuse.

Just like a 5 year old child who tells a lie, the child knew better, but did it anyway, hoping to feign ignorance. The child didn't have to be told 'It's wrong to lie' The child already knew that. His concious told him it was wrong.

Yes people are born with the knowledge that had been imparted with them, but too many people feign ignorance because they are happier being sinners, and don't want to have to be reminded of the consequences of sin.

And that's my take on the matter

Somebody doesn't have any experience with children. Children are not born knowing social rules. They are born with some knowledge of basic physics, but not with social rules. Until you tell a child it is wrong, children will bite, hit, lie and generally be obnoxious little animals. Never mind that small children have a very tenuous relationship with reality and have a hard time separating fact from fiction, and, until you have theory of mind figured out, lying isn't quite the same thing as it would be for an adult.

Well, naturally God wasn't saying that they would be born again, just by looking at the world of His creation around them; what He was saying is that in creation, there is an obvious creator. If they observe and ask, He will move toward them in manifesting Himself, and eventually, if they keep seeking and asking, He will reveal their need for a Savior Who is Jesus Christ. You'd be amazed at some of the missionary biographies and what they've reported regarding the work that God had already done in people's hearts prior to the missionary's arrival.

Oh, okay, so these indigenous persons are eventually going to walk into Sao Paolo requesting a Chick Tract, if you please.

Again, if everybody already knows about god and will eventually request the necessary salvation information from you, why bother evangelizing? It's all very confusing to me.

*I think I'm using that word correctly, but I'm not sure.


  1. Well, obviously you evangelize so as to make sure the unsaved heathens can see how morally superior Christians are and convert.
    Obviously. I mean, this is that sophisticated theology we keep hearing about.

    This is off-topic by a mile, but, happy May Day! Morris dancing, maypoles (snicker), and Summer being officially on its way!

  2. what gets me - REALLY bothers me - is that there WERE missonaries, HERE, in what is NOW the IS, saying that many tribes had a religion that was basically Christianity. yes, they called God by a different name, and instead of "angels" they had beings like Coyote and Spider - but, at it's core, it was almost exactly the same as Christianity. down to being "judged" and an eternal afterlife.

    there wasn't a "hell" per se ["hell" would have been being an earth-bound spirit] but there wasn't a "hell" in the original Christianity, either.

    and then the fucking Catholics and the fucking Spainards [sorry - reverse that; given the point in history, the Spanish crown all but OWNED the RCC] decided "savages" couldn't have come to God on their own, and started systemically destroying their culture, their heritage, their religion, and ultimately the entire "race".

    because who the fuck BOTHERS to read their holy book and understand it? so far as i can tell, Queen Isabella was the ONLY one [who wasn't a missionary on the ground] who believe that the "Indians" had their own religion that was valid and good - and all her protections and laws were IGNORED while she was alive [at least, mostly - a few times, people got caught and were savagely punished for breaking them] and discarded altogether after she died - she was, after all, "only a woman", however powerful, wise and COMPETENT.

    it makes me sick, to think of it...

  3. I may be tired due to an all nighter, but I keep reading `The Lord` as `Time Lord` which makes this piece very interesting...

  4. Well, according to William Lee Craig, a highly respected Christian philosopher, the answer to that is Divine Gerrymandering. God is not unjust, so He saw to it, already before the Creation, that all those souls who would live just over the hill from where the missionaries reached, would be people who would have rejected the Gospel anyway. No shit.

  5. i like the blog's new layout


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