Who Is This Jesus Fellow, Anyway?

On the one hand, I find Chick Tracts deeply disturbing because they are hateful beyond reason. I find that at local convenient stores and such all the time and feel the urge to wash my hands after handling them. (I throw them away because I do think of the children.)

On the other hand, Chick Tracts are hilarious. There is always that point in the story where the witnessee is all "Jesus- who's that?!" The only people in the US who would have that reaction to hearing about Jesus would be newborns or people who just got off a plane- from Mars.

So Michael Mock makes an excellent point* in his series on Christian evangelism:

Don't believe me? I recently got annoyed enough[3] to actually write out the reasons why I am not a Christian. They're... comprehensive. In order to bring me back into the fold, you would have to find a way to satisfactorily address everything in that post. That would require, among other things, some sort of epiphany - in the original sense of the word, where God reaches down and touches my thoughts - that seems to confirm not only God's existence, but Christianity as the best way of understanding Him. Can you provide all that? Now, every other former believer is going to have their own version of that list. It's not just a matter of offering a ground-up justification for Christian beliefs. You're going to have to start all the way down in the foundation, and work from there.

Does that sound like the sort of job where Sisyphus himself would watch you with a little gleam ofschadenfreude in his eyes?

I love a good Sisyphus reference.

I don't know why, but there is a certain segment of evangelical Christians who seem to think the only reason you aren't currently at church worshipping is because you simply don't know about this Jesus fellow, because if you had heard of Jesus once in your life, you'd automatically start worshipping him. To know him is to love him, to not love him is simply not to know him. There is literally no other reason one could have for not worshipping the Christian god (in exactly the way the witnessor does.)

In real life, I'm not very confrontational, so I generally deal with this in one of two ways, completely ignoring the earnest evangelist, or claiming to be of the faith already. The latter option can get a little dicey if they start asking questions about your church, etc., so I don't really recommend it. Sometimes, I thank them and then tell them they have convinced me to rejoin the Catholic Church. That's fun for the whole family!

Here's the thing, earnest evangelist, you know all those Way of the Master videos you see in which Ray Comfort, et al. claim to have converted atheists, et al.**? That's not true. Those people are not atheists. They belong to a certain subset of Christianity that is very common in the US, common because the US is a predominantly Christian country, in both numbers and culture. These people may not attend church or read the Bible, but they do accept that Christianity is the right way to go and that the Bible is the authoritative word of the Christian God, who is the correct god to worship. In fact, they don't consider any other god to be real, nor do they accept any other religion as being anything other than a confusing curiosity. This group may well be the largest group of Christians in the US.

It's not too hard to convince such a person that your particular interpretation of Christianity is true. You just need to be confident and insistent. Reference the Bible, they don't know what it says, but they do accept it as authoritative. Reference Hell, they believe in it. Reference Heaven, they want to go there. You can "convert" these people all day long. (Not that I think convincing one sort of Christian to be another sort of Christian is actually conversion.)

The problem is, Ray Comfort and his ilk sell this sort of evangelism and "conversion" as something it is not: effective against atheists, especially former believers who are now atheists. We've heard all your arguments, in fact, we probably made them at one point. We've read the Bible. I own 17 different Bibles and I've read every one of them cover to cover (well, not the Begats). I am intimately familiar with your holy book, I just don't think it's any holier than The Lord of the Rings. (And not nearly as well written.) I've also read the Q'ran and the Bhagavad Ghita, and I follow His Holiness the Dalai Lama on twitter (@DalaiLama). Quote the Bible at me and I'll quote it right it back, or ignore you. This isn't news to me.

That's really what it is. This is not news to me. Let me repeat myself: The Good News is not news to me. I have heard it before. Hearing the Good News did not convince me of anything the first 1,000 times I heard it, this time is not going to be different. Yes, yes, I know, I'm standing on the train tracks and the train is coming fast and ZOMG! Hell!!!1!!eleventy!!!

You know what? I am a competent, adult individual and that's a risk I have decided to take. I know, I'm scaring you and you would rather I did not take that risk, but I feel the same way about bungie jumping and sky diving. The big difference is you don't see me hanging out at airports and bridges screaming at people to stop exposing themselves to avoidable danger. I know the danger, okay? I have made an informed decision and continuing to inform me of the risk I have decided to take is completely unnecessary and really annoying.

So ask yourself something: have you, personally, ever been swayed by someone questioning your right to self determination in an annoying fashion? If not, why do you think that anyone else would be swayed by such a thing?

*Actually, MM almost always makes a good point in his posts.

**You would not believe how many legal documents I've typed in the last two days.

Dying to Self or Being an Self Righteous Doormat? You Decide.

If there is one phrase peculiar to evangelical Christians that really rubs me the wrong way, it's "dying to self". Purely as an English construction, that is meaningless. To evangelicals, it means, well, this:

When you are forgotten, or neglected, or purposely set at naught, and you don't sting and hurt with the insult or the oversight, but your heart is happy, being counted worthy to suffer for Christ.

~THAT IS DYING TO SELF~

"Set at naught"? I like Jane Austen and I have no idea what that means. As to the rest, let's examine emotions for a moment, and why we feel them and the validity of feeling emotions. First of all, humans feel emotions. It's what we do. So do dogs, cats, gorillas, horses and pretty much anything with a brain. Apparently, Christians strive to be on the level of insects, which may very well be quite passionate beings for all I know. So rocks. These people aspire to be as rocks.

So, we feel emotions, what does that mean? Well, in the above examples, it means that your reaction to others' actions is something you have to deal with. If my friends forget about me, I will be hurt. For good reason. It's not nice for my friends to forget me. My emotions make me deal with it. Ignoring my friends' neglect of me is stupid. They'll keep neglecting me. I won't get what I need from friends, which is not being neglected and forgotten. I need to confront my friends, get them to stop neglecting me, or find friends who won't forget about me.

Either way, emotions are a good thing*. Ignoring them isn't. It's not being like Jesus, it's setting oneself up for abuse and mental illness.

Look at it this way, if one is healthy, pain is a good thing. Pain tells you that you are hurt and need to do something. Without pain, you would never know, and die from untreated infections or a burst appendix. Emotional pain is the same way. Yes, it sucks to be sad and angry when someone mistreats you, but it motivates you to change things so your relationships are healthy again. Ignoring pain, whether emotional or physical, is a very bad idea.

When your good is evil spoken of, when your wishes are crossed, your advice disregarded, your opinions ridiculed, and you refuse to let anger rise in your heart, or even defend yourself, but take it all in patient, loving silence.

~THAT IS DYING TO SELF~

That is accepting abuse without complaint. What is wrong with people? Also, "when your good is evil spoken of" is the most ridiculous English construction I have ever seen. I know what she's trying to say, but there are far better ways of saying it. Talking like Yoda does not poetry make.

When you lovingly and patiently bear any disorder, any irregularity, any unpunctuality, or any annoyance; when you stand face-to-face with waste, folly, extravagance, spiritual insensibility-and endure it as Jesus endured.

~THAT IS DYING TO SELF~

How Jesus endured waste, folly and extravagance? You mean like fucking up the moneylenders in the Temple? That Jesus? Anyway, one of my SILs was always late for everything. We started telling her events started an hour before they did and she still showed up late. Then we just started without her, and guess what? She now shows up on time. You want people to continue to be "unpunctual" (srsly, wtf?), just let it go. You want people to show up on time? Do something about it.

When you are content with any food, any offering, any climate, any society, any raiment, any interruption by the will of God.

~THAT IS DYING TO SELF~

I guess the author would be perfectly happy with eating tarantulas while wearing a show girl outfit in the Antarctic. Or not. Constantly bitching about things that can't be changed is bad for you and everyone around you. Saying you'd prefer steak to the ramen noodles you've been eating for two weeks straight is just being human. Which these people are clearly opposed to.

When you never care to refer to yourself in conversation, or to record your own good works, or itch after commendations, when you can truly love to be unknown.

~THAT IS DYING TO SELF~

That's called being a cipher.

When you can see your brother prosper and have his needs met and can honestly rejoice with him in spirit and feel no envy, nor question God, while your own needs are far greater and in desperate circumstances.

~THAT IS DYING TO SELF~

That is being a nice person. You're still a nice person if you care about your own needs, however.

When you can receive correction and reproof from one of less stature than yourself and can humbly submit inwardly as well as outwardly, finding no rebellion or resentment rising up within your heart.

~THAT IS DYING TO SELF~

Oh, get over yourself. Now you're just being obnoxious. Not even Jesus took that kind of shit, unless you missed all his arguing with the Pharisees.

Are you dead yet?

Freaky! Are you dead yet. And they mean it. Are you, the unique person with needs and wants and desires gone? Have you stopped with all that unacceptable human emotion? Have you become a robot, a cipher a Stepford Wife? Better hurry up, god has no use for real people.

There are excellent reasons I am an atheist.

*Assuming one is emotionally and mentally healthy, of course. Emotions can be an absolute curse if one is not, but we'll assume reasonable mental health for this post.

No, Actually It Was Never Easier

Filed under Revering Pasts that Never Were, we have this screed against assisted reproduction (i.e., IVF, surrogacy, etc.):

At some point, anticipated and even feared by some parents, every child asks the inevitable question: “Where did I come from?” That question is endemic to humanity. The question of our own biological origins is eventually inescapable. Our existence requires an explanation, and the question takes bold form. The answer used to be easy.

That is, the answer was easy in terms of biology. In some form, the answer took the shape of a story about two people, one male and one female, who came together and made a baby. Mommy and Daddy made a baby. That story was both true and universal. For most of human history, there was no alternative account. The answer given by parents in 1960 was the same as that given in 1060 or in any previous year.

Except not. Keep in mind, the number of children, in the US, conceived through assisted reproduction* is quite small. Reproductive assistance is prohibitively expensive, for one thing, and most people don't need it, for another. You know what number is far larger? The number of children being raised by men not their biological fathers who don't know they aren't the biological father**. That's a complicated explanation of someone's existence. A certain number of women have and raise their rapist's child, as well. That's not something I would ever want to explain to a child. That's complicated. A wee bit more complicated, to me anyway, than "Mommy and Daddy (or Mommy or Mommy and Mommy or Daddy and Daddy) had trouble making a baby so they got a doctor to help."

You know what? What is so complicated about "Mommy and Daddy (or Mommy or Mommy and Mommy or Daddy and Daddy) had trouble making a baby so they got a doctor to help." You don't have to explain the exact intricacies of IVF to a child. It's not like a small child would understand that if you did. I just don't see the necessity for pearl clutching in this situation. Oh, right, evangelical Christians. They're just not happy if they don't have a death grip on a string of fake pearls.

*Major league reproductive assistance like IVF and surrogacy, as opposed to less dramatic assistance like hormonal therapy. I don't think anyone has a problem with hormonal therapy. Yet.

**Unfortunately, the MRAs have taken over on this one, so a google search turns up a number between 1 in 25 and 1 in 5. I somehow don't think it's 20% of all children, but it is more common than IVF successes.

And the Lord Said Unto the Juggalo

This inspired a worldwide subculture.

ICP (Insane Clown Posse*), a pair of, well, clowns, famous for violent lyrics and violent, hardcore fans, are . . . wait for it . . . evangelical Christians, and have been all along.

First, I would like to say MWHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

Secondly, Violent J and Shaggy 2 Dope (I am not making any of this up, I swear!) are, well, violent and dope. And wearing clown makeup. And working for the Lord, with such unforgettable classics as

I'm hating sluts

Shoot them in the face, step back and itch my nuts

Unless I'm in the sack

Cos I fuck so hard it'll break their back.

and

Barrels in your mouth

bullets to your head

The back of your neck's all over the shed

Boomshacka boom chop chop bang.

Allow me to repeat myself: MWHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

Apparently, the above back breaking fucking and boom chop chop bang was supposed to turn people to the Christian God.

Fuck it, we got to tell.

All secrets will now be told

No more hidden messages

…Truth is we follow GOD!!!

We've always been behind him

The carnival is GOD

And may all juggalos find him

We're not sorry if we tricked you.

I really cannot stop saying MWHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

*Do not ask me to explain the wild, enduring popularity of a pair of idiots painted up as clowns. I cannot explain it.

Photograph: Jim Newberry

Ray Comfort Is Losing

1 in 8 adults in America is an exChristian, but movement in the other direction, from nonChristian to Christian as an adult, represents only 3% of the population. Which proves, at the very least, most people's suspicions that Ray isn't converting people to Christianity so much as he is moving people from one form of Christianity to another. That's like switching from liking Star Wars to Star Trek- you're still a geek like me.

According to the Christian research group, the most common reasons for leaving Christianity included life experiences, such as gaining new knowledge or education; feeling disillusioned with church and religion; feeling the church is hypocritical; having negative experiences in churches; being in disagreement with Christianity about specific issues such as homosexuality, abortion or birth control; feeling the church is too authoritarian; wanting to express their faith outside of church; and searching for a new faith or wanting to experience other religions.

That makes sense given the atheists I personally know, but what's interesting is that "life experiences" is the major motivation for switching to Christianity as well:

The top motivations for becoming a Christian, meanwhile, were going through difficult life events; getting older and seeing life differently; wanting to connect with a church and grow spiritually; discovering Christ; or wanting to know what was in the Bible.

I really can't see why you'd ever ask become Christian to find out what's in the Bible, most of them don't have the slightest clue. (See also: Left Behind, Rapture Ready, any Christian on TV)

pic link

Office of Spiritual Fitness

In what could be a chapter from The Handmaid's Tale, the U.S. military gave a consulting firm $3,500,000 to provide "spiritual fitness" services and required soldiers to attend evangelical Christian concerts at a cost of $30,000 - $100,000 per concert.

Another problem with these concerts, besides the issues like soldiers being punished for choosing not to attend them, is that they are run by the commanders, and not the chaplains' offices. It is absolutely permissible for a chaplain's office to put on a Christian concert. It is not permissible for the command to put on a Christian concert, or any other religious event. Having a religious concert series that is actually called and promoted as a Commanding General's Concert Series is completely over the top.

And then there's the cost. These concerts aren't just small events with local Christian bands. We're talking about the top, nationally known, award-winning Christian artists, with headline acts costing anywhere from $30,000 to $100,000, and even many of the opening acts being in the $10,000 range.

The cost of these concerts led MRFF's research department to start looking at some of the DoD contracts for other "spiritual fitness" events and programs, and what we found was astounding. One contract, for example, awarded to an outside consulting firm to provide "spiritual fitness" services, was for $3.5 million.

Unfuckingbelievable. I don't have anything clever to say about this. Millions of dollars of tax money spent on proselytizing to our troops, those same troops receiving inadequate care for their trauma and injury, those same troops protected by separation of church and state- you know, the Constitution they're supposed to be defending? Yeah, that.

Slightly Less Crazy, But Not By Much

I grew up Catholic, so I suppose I shouldn't find discussions of demons as actual, real forces in the world as bizarre as I do- I mean, there are people within the RCC whose business cards read "Fr. Smith, Exorcist"- but the average Catholic does not spend a great deal of time thinking about Satan/demons. Contrast with evangelical christians who, I swear to you this is literally true, blame Satan if traffic is bad or their computer gets a virus. (Really. Get yourself onto Rapture Ready's message board and check out the prayer requests, half of which are desperate pleas to pray the demon out of the drippy faucet.)

Hence, we get this testament to crazy:

In the 20-plus years he has known Christ, Brady Boyd has never been to a megachurch where
demonic spirits was discussed.

And Boyd, who is currently senior pastor at New Life Church in Colorado
Springs, considers it a "big, big, big" topic that needs to be talked
about.

. . .

For Boyd, the existence of demons is very real. He recalled a time when his
young son, Abram, had "intense night terrors" (nightmares). They kept Abraham
and Boyd up at nights regularly. After recognizing that there was "a spiritual
element attacking" his son, Boyd prayed a "short, emphatic, decisive prayer"
calling on the name of Jesus. The "night terrors" stopped, he said.

The only thing that could be more horrifying than night terrors would be being told by your parents that the cause of your night terrors is Satan. If that's not abusive, I don't know what is.

One of my nieces suffered from night terrors. They're not uncommon, they require no treatment and they are horrifying. I will never forget seeing my niece, I think she was 3 at the time, screaming for her mother in absolute, unadulterated terror while her mother held her and begged her to see that she was there. My niece had no memory of the event once she actually woke up.

There is nothing psychologically or physically wrong with a person who has night terrors. It's a quirk of the sleep cycles. They sure as hell aren't caused by Satan. As I said above, night terrors tend to go away on their own. Generally, night terrors in children don't last more than a few weeks, and almost all children outgrow them before adolescence. Prayer didn't make Mr. Boyd's son better, time did. And I really cannot get over how abusive it is to tell someone that Satan caused their passing sleep disorder.

It does get crazier:

"A lot of the counseling I do at New Life Church could be settled if we
just had a culture where when a
thought came to you we had a sensitivity, an awareness that it's not from God.
If we just repent of it ... then adulterous affairs would stop, all the things
wrecking families would stop," he said. "It all just starts with a
thought."

That's right. Adulterous affairs aren't symptoms of complex psychological, personality and relationship disorders that need to be addressed and dealt with, you just need to think happy thoughts. Let me know how that works out for you.

18" of Snow Later . . .

atheism, atheist, christianity, evangelical, fundamentalism,
It's still snowing and here I am at work. Just me and Meanboss. Good times.

I thought I'd discuss the phenomenon of "passing"* as it relates to being an atheist/agnostic in the US today. A woman wrote to the Freakonomics blog with the following observation:

We are agnostics living deep in the heart of Texas and our family fakes
Christianity for social reasons. It’s not so much for the sake of my husband or
myself but for our young children. We found by experience that if we were
truthful about not being regular church attenders, the play dates suddenly
ended. Thus started the faking of the religious funk.

It seemed silly but it’s all very serious business down here. We don’t
go to church or teach or children one belief is “right” over another. We expose
them to every kind of belief and trust that they will one day settle in to their
very own spirituality. However, for the sake of friends and neighbors, we
pretend we are Christians. We try not to lie but rather not to disclose
unnecessary information. As the children are getting older, this isn’t so easy
for them and an outing is probably eminent.

I wouldn't call this "pretending to be Christians", I would call this "passing as Christians", which is something that, in my experience, the majority of atheists/agnostics do. I do it. I don't tell people I'm Christian, I don't claim to go to church, I just don't discuss beliefs I don't hold. I just don't say how I really feel. I allow religious conversations to flow over me. If forced to make some sort of observation, I go with "interpretable any way you want" vague.

Is passing necessary? Absolutely. The writer above isn't the only atheist I know who had playdates for the children cancelled after they were outed. I'm not the only atheist I know who has been fired after being outed.

The comments to this article are quite telling:

I am so tired of the anti-Christian bigotry in the mainstream media,
especially the liberal media like the NYT.
How do I know it’s bigotry?
Because I know for a fact that the NYT would NEVER do a story entitled “We
Pretend We Are Jews/Muslims/InsertAnotherReligionHere”.
btw, I faked reading
“Freakanomics” for a polsci class one year. Passed with flying colours.

Hey, Jackass, you know why nobody in the US passes as Jewish or Muslim? Because 75% of Americans are Christian. If this article were about Israel or Pakistan, then yes, we would discuss passing as a Jew or a Muslim. I know for a fact that a certain number of Iranians are passing, but that's not the discussion here.

I completely understand where G.D. is coming from. I too am deep in the
heart of Texas, where the mere mention of atheism causes folks to break out in
hives. Evangelical Christianity is pervasive in every aspect of life here,
including the workplace. Where else would you get a talk about finding the Lord
Jesus Christ in an employee review? (I’m not kidding, I was told this right
before I was asked to resign)

Been there.

If you don’t “…teach [your] children one belief is ‘right’ over another,” how
far does that go? Is stealing OK? Lying, cheating, murdering? How about just not
being altruistic? If your kids decide that some of those things are “right” for
them, will you teach them otherwise? Relativism doesn’t work, folks. You’re
setting your kids up for disaster, and robbing them of years of their lives that
could be spent getting to know the God of the universe and understanding His
love and power.

And that's why we pass.

I had to fake it for 12 years of private Catholic school. We had mass every week
at school and my parents made me go every Sunday. At mass, I had to go get
communion, even though I didn’t believe the bread was actually God. In
Catholicism, receiving communion without believing it is God is very seriously
frowned upon, but no one knew I didn’t believe and going up and eating bread at
every mass was easier than the torment that would await me had I chosen to stay
seated during the ceremony. One time a girl in my class didn’t want to go
because she wasn’t sure she believed and wanted to be safe and not make God
angry. She was ridiculed for 2 years for it (devil worshiper, witch, etc.) and
had to switch schools. I kept my mouth shut and head down until I moved away for
college.

Been there, too. I faked Catholicism for years, including taking the eucharist every Sunday, even though it was blasphemous to do so. What I love about this one is the "devil worshiper" was being honest and respectful of the Catholic faith- and was crucified for it.

So I was raised totally muslim, yet now probably count as an agnostic. Although
truthfully I just don’t think about religion at all. But being in the army for
the last 6 years. I would lie lie lie about it to avoid all kinds of problems
and lectures. These included, with held promotion, deferment of favors and
awards even when documented, and a general feeling of being watched at all
times.

I don't blame him. I do find it shameful that a man willing to die for our country has to lie in order to avoid discrimination.

I faked being a Buddhist for years because of the social stigma that’s
associated with being an Atheist. I had a few run ins with die hards, but it
seems that having a religion is enough to stave off of the majority of rabid
theists. I’d been hiding under my cover for so long that when I finally dropped
it and joined a local Atheist group that friends of mine corrected me and
explained that I was a Buddhist.

That's not uncommon, either. While evangelicals view Catholics, Hindus and Buddhists as being devil worshippers, they do seem to prefer devil worship to no worship at all.

I don't know what I'd do without the internet, without this blog. Here, I am allowed to be honest, while in real life, I hide. Some days I just want to have I DON'T BELIEVE IN GOD tattooed on my forehead, I'm so sick of it. Then I remember that I need to do things like eat and pay for heat and go online to be real.

Could You Repeat That, Please?

christianity, christian, evangelical, marxism, socialism, war, homosexual, homophobia, bible, jesus,

Jan Markell, at Olive Tree Views, points out everything that is wrong with evangelical Christianity today, with no apparent awareness that she did so.

In many Bibles, all the words of Jesus are in red. There is nothing wrong with that. But something is wrong when Leftist Christians or so-called Christians want to mute the words of Paul and other writers and only follow Jesus' words. They call themselves "red-letter Christians."

They feel it is convenient to blot out the words of Paul on homosexuality and focus in on the good deeds Jesus talks about. Most are pacifists who reject an "eye for an eye" (Leviticus 24:19-20). They focus on Jesus' words about helping the poor, ministering to "the least of these" (Matthew 25:40), loving our enemies, etc. That justifies abandoning hundreds, even thousands of condemning verses in the Bible they choose to wish away. That makes homosexuality OK and war wrong! And remember, Paul and the others in the Bible represent Jesus' words. They were His spokesmen.

Srsly? Let's review, shall we? War: soldiers and innocents die, often horribly, and many are left injured and maimed. Children are permanently traumatized, left orphaned, do without food, medicine and education. Chaos reigns, leading to rape and other forms of violence. Fear abounds.

Homosexuality:

I suggest we send Ms. Markell to live with a gay couple for a week, then drop her off in a war zone. Maybe then she could see the difference. Unbelievable.

Wallis continues, "Jesus calls us to be merciful, which has strong implications for how we think about capital punishment. When Jesus tells us to love our enemies, He probably means we shouldn't kill them. Most important, if we take Jesus seriously, we will realize that meeting the needs of the poor is a primary responsibility for His followers. Ghandi once said that everybody in the world knows what Jesus was teaching in those verses except Christians." To your average evangelical, the words of Ghandi are meaningless.

Yeah, fuck Ghandi! What did he know? All his non violence- he could have been waging war!

As Mark Tooley of the Institute for Religion and Democracy writes, "These people only criticize the U.S. and Israel in its human rights critiques, while remaining largely silent about monstrous regimes. They focus on America's supposed mistreatment of Indians, about slavery, and the internment of Japanese-Americans during World War II. But they will never talk about the Holocaust." You will also note they don't talk about the butchery of Mao, Stalin, Pol Pot, Saddam Hussein, or Kim Jong IL.

The "supposed" mistreatment of Indians? Does she perhaps mean the genocide committed against the native peoples of America? What is wrong with these people?

I'm starting to understand why people like Limbaugh and Beck are so attractive to these people, and it really scares me.

Why Atheists Care

blackwater, bush, war, iraq, religion, gog, magog, hussein, eric prince, Jaques Chirac, christianity, evangelical
4,000 US soldiers have died thus far in Iraq. Around 100,000 Iraqis have died. Over $600,000,000,000 has been spent on the war in Iraq. Thus far, no one's come up with a particularly good reason why.

There were no WMDs in Iraq, and evidence has shown that nobody ever really believed there were. Al Queda wasn't operating in Iraq until after we invaded. In fact, Saddam Hussein was a fairly secular Middle Eastern leader.

Now it seems we may know the answer, and it demonstrates, with horrifying clarity, why atheists care so very much about the merging of religion and politics.

According to former French President Jaques Chirac, Bush cited religious reasons for invading Iraq. Apparently, Bush was attempting to prevent the famed Gog-Magog War some evangelicals believe is prophesied in the book of Ezekiel. Really.

Incredibly, President George W. Bush told French President Jacques Chirac in early 2003 that Iraq must be invaded to thwart Gog and Magog, the Bible’s satanic agents of the Apocalypse.

. . .

Now out of office, Chirac recounts that the American leader appealed to their “common faith” (Christianity) and told him: “Gog and Magog are at work in the Middle East…. The biblical prophecies are being fulfilled…. This confrontation is willed by God, who wants to use this conflict to erase his people’s enemies before a New Age begins.”

. . .

The French revelation jibes with other known aspects of Bush’s renowned evangelical certitude. For example, a few months after his phone call to Chirac, Bush attended a 2003 summit in Egypt. The Palestinian foreign minister later said the American president told him he was “on a mission from God” to defeat Iraq. At that time, the White House called this claim “absurd.”

Absurd, yes. Untrue? I fear not. We may very well be involved in a modern day Crusade, especially given the latest revelations concerning Eric Prince and Blackwater. According to one of two anonymous affidavits filed in the last few days:

John Doe 2 alleges that Mr Prince operated a web of companies to “obscure wrongdoing, fraud and other crimes . . . to avoid detection of his money laundering and tax evasion schemes.” He adds that Mr Prince “views himself as a Christian crusader tasked with eliminating Muslims and the Islamic faith from the globe [and] intentionally deployed to Iraq certain men who shared his vision of Christian supremacy, knowing and wanting these men to take every available opportunity to murder ­Iraqis.”

In a bizarre addition, John Doe 2’s affidavit says: “Many of these men used call signs based on the Knights of the Templar, the warriors who fought the Crusades” and refers to a “wife swapping and sex ring” run by “Mr Prince’s North Carolina operations”.

We need to fight against the conflation of religion and politics, religion and policy, religion and war. You and I (for my US readers) may well be the owners of a Crusade, and I don't really think "Oh, my bad" is going to cover this one.

Good for Me, but not for Thee

evangelism, fundamentalist, fundamentalist, evangelical, christian, reiki
And the winner of the Most Clueless Fundy Award goes to scrappergirl for this comment on her friend who is into reiki:

funny story, though. one of my friends went to a Reiki thing and became a certified Reiki practitioner a couple of years ago, and shortly thereafter she came over and was gushing about this Reiki thing (i knew very little of it at the time) and it was shortly after I was in a car accident (that i still suffer from the effects of today) and was in pain. She tried SO hard to let me let her Reiki me. She was like "I don't even have to touch you" and i was like, "well then how will that help me?" and she was talking about the energy, etc, and i was like "well, where does that energy come from?" and she was like "from God". I go, "well how do YOu know that?". It was the craziest thing, bc she was so adamant about how it would make me feel better, etc, and i was not going to let her reiki me! It was practically like she was trying to pressure me into it...kept bringing it up.

Would that be in any way similar to the way evangelicals just won't let the whole Jesus thing go, scrappergirl? Just a teensy bit? Not even a little?

Dispatches from the Front Lines

evangelical, evangelism, witnessing, witness, bible, jesus, tracts, ray, comfort, wotm,
I have long suspected that the standard form of witnessing as sold by Ray Comfort in his Way of the Master series is a dismal failure. (Ray's evangelism "college" costs $150 to attend, btw. Yeah.)

Now, in these stories straight from believers themselves, I have proof of this failure. (Oddly, the believers do not count these stories as failures. They count them as successes. Apparently, simply getting a total stranger to acknowledge your existence is a win for Jesus.)

the lindaman family:

Well, I did it!!!! Twice! First, my husband and I were at a gas station and I just walked up to this girl and handed her a million dollar bill. She looked at me like I just fell off of Mars, but she took it. Second, I was at another gas station, which was full service. I didn't realize it was full service, but God did. The guy walked up to my van, pumped my gas, and when he was done I got to give him a million dollar bill. When I pulled away he was reading it! I can't even tell you how excited it made me. Thanks again for what you do!

1) I believe the expression is "landed from Mars" or "came here from Mars".
2) That's probably the look on my face when people randomly hand me trash to throw away.
3) How was that a success? Basic politeness would make her accept the trash even if she didn't want it.
4) "I didn't realize it was full service, but God did"?! wtf? seriously?
5) Again, how was this a success? The gas station attendant read the trash you handed him. So what?

deanna:

I am very shy, and would never have dreamed I could witness. I have been encouraged by listening to The Way of the Master to start sharing my faith. I now give out million dollar bills when I go to Walmart or the grocery store. God can use even shy people!

at least i don't go to that walmart. i don't like scaring shy people. (apparently she's too shy even for an informative profile.)

danagirl47:

I'm like the friend you described. I am totally itching to share my faith, but I'm so shy I just don't know how. So I usually end up feeling guilty because Christ gave His life for me and I can't even bring myself to talk about it. So I took you up on your challenge last week, and on my very last day I finally made sure I actually had a tract with me and gave it to the K-Mart cashier. It was totally awkward because I didn't really know what to say, but I'm still glad I did it. Thanks for the challenge. Would love some prayer. :)

nothing like involving yourself in an awkward social situation for your faith. still no successes. (and i'd like to hear the story from the cashier's point of view.)

ricardo:

Hola! I work for a Messianic Jewish ministry in San Francisco, CA (I'm a gentile). I've never had the guts to pass out Bible tracts, but after watching the news a couple of weeks ago and seeing Christians get chased out of the Castro District for simply praying, when one of the evangelists on staff asked me the other day if I would help pass out Bible tracts in Union Square I couldn't resist! I stood on the corner for a couple of hours passing out tracts and struck up a great conversation with a really nice elderly Jewish woman. Her and her daughter passed me by at first, but I noticed her take a second look at my shirt which simply says "Y'shua" across the chest. I continued to pass out tracts and I noticed the women looking back at me from about 30 yards away and talking with each other. After a couple of minutes the elderly woman approached me and asked, "Are you here to convert the Jews or the Goyim?" I told her I was here to tell about Y'shua. She asked me the same question again. I told her "I'm not here to convert anyone, I'm here to get to people to consider the facts and make an educated decision as to whether or not Y'shua is the Messiah the Hebrew prophets fortold." Again, she asked me the same question a third time. I said, "Look Miss, I'm here to tell both Jews and Gentiles alike that the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob chose the children of Israel to have a special relationship with, and through that special, unique relationship with Israel, God would introduce Himself to the world and all of mankind would be blessed. I'm here to get you to consider whether or not Y'shua is that blessing, through whom God manifested Himself in human form and makes salvation possible for all of mankind." With that she said, "Hmmm. Ok. Let me have one of those." I gave her one, we talked, and shared a laugh. I wish I could say she asked the Lord for forgiveness, but she promised to read the tract and look into it. God's at work! I love your site; many blessings!

Jews for Jesus! Except that he's not a Jew. I love how he couldn't answer the old lady's question. What does the bible say about honesty? something . . . I forget. anyway, still no successes.

Joe Byrd:

Trish-I just read your Challenge blog--Let me tell you something I do ---I go with my wife to Wal-mart and , go loaded down with Living Waters tracts.. I start handing them out with ""The Greeter", but I don't make myself too obvious because--I'm on a mission. While she shops ,I stroll thru the book section and I start browsing through all the magazines and paperbacks, -but before I put one one down and pick the other up I stick a tract securely inside it. When I'm finished with that task, I go to the card section and place a track in front of a few cards . It looks just like a card-----------------I've done this many times ---They work all week long for you. I've done many different things and I get so many good ideas from you and WOTM. I've shared one-on-one many times and You know what? I've never had anyone rude to me when I do the good person test. I did have a lady put her hands over her ears because she was so convicted. I've still yet to open air but am very close.

Thank you for your conviction and dedication in witnessing to the lost.

Joe

He's on a mission- from god. I love the sneakiness here. He can't just hand tracts to people, he hides them in books and shelves. (I suppose I might appreciate the free bookmark if I found a tract in my book, but it wouldn't convert me.)

and, what exactly does "they work all week long for you" mean, anyway? work how? it sounds like an ad for an internet sales scheme.

I have to say, I see people selling things in front of Walmart all the time- cookies, candy, etc. They do very well. So why is Jesus such a hard sell? And why do these people take such pride, such joy in engaging in an activity that doesn't seem to work? Most people abandon a losing strategy- these people embrace it.

The Problem With Morality From Above

torture, waterboarding, hitchens, christophers, christian, protestant, evangelical, religion, morality, morals

A new CNN survey proves exactly the atheist concern with morality from above.

Morality from above is the religious view of morality: if god says it's okay, no matter how horrible it is, I'm okay with it. God says that oppressing homosexuals is good, then that's what I'll do.

The atheist perspective on morality is a little different. We have nowhere to go for our morals other than ourselves, so we naturally go to golden rule morality: would I want this done to me? Should I oppress gays? Hmmm . . . would I want to be oppressed? No. Then I shouldn't do it to other people.

The more often Americans go to church, the more likely they are to support the torture of suspected terrorists, according to a new survey.

More than half of people who attend services at least once a week -- 54 percent -- said the use of torture against suspected terrorists is "often" or "sometimes" justified. Only 42 percent of people who "seldom or never" go to services agreed, according to the analysis released Wednesday by the Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life.

White evangelical Protestants were the religious group most likely to say torture is often or sometimes justified -- more than six in 10 supported it. People unaffiliated with any religious organization were least likely to back it. Only four in 10 of them did.

Christopher Hitchens actually had himself waterboarded to determine if that qualified as torture or not. (Note: that video is disturbing.) I think that anyone who isn't sure if waterboarding is torture or not, should do what Hitchens did. I've already drowned once, so I know the answer. It is.

If you think torturing people (and yes, terrorists are indeed people, bad people, but people) is okay, you might want to consider two things: it's very hard to take the position that captured USians should not be tortured when we run around torturing people, and torture produces unreliable information. People being tortured will say anything to make it stop. Anything at all.

It may be a means of extracting information, but it is also a means of extracting junk information. (Mr. Nance told me that he had heard of someone’s being compelled to confess that he was a hermaphrodite. I later had an awful twinge while wondering if I myself could have been “dunked” this far.) To put it briefly, even the C.I.A. sources for the Washington Post story on waterboarding conceded that the information they got out of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed was “not all of it reliable.” Just put a pencil line under that last phrase, or commit it to memory.

Think about that for a moment. We (and we all must take responsibility for the actions of our government) tortured a human being in order to obtain unreliable information. I'm pretty sure just asking would have produced that result. At least then we could have maintained the moral high ground. Now, here we are, down in the muck, and 60% of white evangelical protestants think that's a fabulous place to be.

You'd Think a Prophet Would Have Seen This Coming

mormon, lds, homophobia, homosexual, evangelical, catholic, prop 8, marriage, tradition, gay
Mormons have been whining that everybody associates prop 8 with them, when in fact evangelicals and Catholics were instrumental in its passing, too.

I just had to post this because it’s too interesting to pass up. So Miss California makes a statement about believing marriage is between a man and a woman, I blog about it, and suddenly traffic to my blog jumps by the hundreds. And guess what people are searching for? You got it, variations of “Miss California + Mormon” and “Is Carrie Prejean Mormon?”

Why is it that we’re still stuck here, folks? Members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are not the only ones who donated to Proposition 8. And Mormons are not the only ones who worked to ensure the passage of Proposition 8. In fact, Mormons were the last faith-based group invited to join the Protect Marriage coalition! Granted, I take pride in defending marriage, but that doesn’t mean I was the only one doing it and maybe, just maybe, there are some other folks out there who would like their fair share of intimidation, intolerance, vandalism, and vulgarity. Just a thought . . . .

So I'll do the Mormons a favor and explain something obvious to them.

Everyone in the US already knew what Catholics and evangelicals are like. They've been in the public eye, being all intolerant and ridiculous for quite some time. Mormons, on the other hand, were an unknown quantity to most of the US until very recently, when Mitt Romney ran in the Republican primary and the Prop 8 debate reared its ugly head.

This may seem a little odd to Mormons, but if you had asked the average USian about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, you would have had to rephrase that to "Mormons" to even get a response. Then, their response would have been something vague about "those guys in the white shirts and black ties" and "Utah". Very few people who weren't Mormon, or didn't live in a predominantly Mormon community, would have been able to tell you about the prophets currently leading LDS, or that the Book of Mormon is, to Mormons, as important, if not more important, than the Bible.

That's the unfortunate part about the leaders of LDS deciding to flex their newly discovered muscles in the Prop 8 debate: it cemented in many people's minds a connection between Mormons and anti gay propaganda. Now, if LDS' leaders had decided to jump into the public scene by, I dunno, helping Katrina victims or something, the general public perception of Mormons would be entirely different. "Oh, yeah, Mormons- didn't they build a bunch of houses for people in New Orleans? Yeah, they seem nice."

Really, you did it to yourselves, and it would not take a prophet to see the backlash before it even started.

So, there you have it, an object lesson to any up and coming religions looking to burst onto the scene: start with something nice.

This May Explain Some Conversations You've Had

atheism, atheist, christian, evangelical, evangelism, fundamentalism, god, jesus, religion, silly, witness, witnessing
I do so enjoy a look into the mind of a fundamentalist, especially as it concerns atheists. It explains a lot of what I read, and a lot of conversations I've had. It's also tremendously frustrating, because it never seems to occur to any of these people to talk to a real life atheist, and actually listen to what they have to say.

Witnessing to an Atheist

What would you say is the strongest point to bring up to an Atheist? Something that really gets them thinking about God.

The question alone is a fallacy: that atheists have never thought of god. In the US, most atheists are former christians. Most of us were raised christian, and have thought about god a lot. In fact, if you're like me, it was thinking about god, and reading the bible, that was the death blow to your faith.

Earl: The strongest point to bring to the atheist is that scientific method is useless really? so how does this guy think all the scientific advances, um, ever, were achieved? magic? he's using a computer to state that the scientific method is useless. and there is spiritual substance unknown by the uncomprehending unspiritual unexperienced atheist. yeah. i'm going to have to ask for proof on that one. oh, but wait, the scientific method is useless! i should just accept anything anyone says to me is true! it's going to be a bitch worshipping yhwh and krishna- and the other few thousand gods humans have worshipped over the years.

One must experience spirit to recognize it's existance-a spiritual experience which the self claimed atheist will admit he/she has not had. you won't know it's true until you accept it as true. but i won't accept it as true until i know it's true. circular reasoning is just so much fun. Spiritual recognition is by experience of the Spirit not by scientific method. which is useless anyway. this cannot work on anyone.

Rebecca_D: How do they think man ever got here? Hatched? Ape? I would ask how their life is going. okay, all things considered. And then go from there. cause anyone without God, their life is miserable. so, why even ask how my life is going if you already know the answer? how arrogant can you be? Rebecca_D knows exactly how my life is without even having to ask. in fact, she knows how everyone's life is going. move over, Sylvia Brown!

catherine: I also read Greg, that alot of people are Atheist's because of their relationship with their earthly Father, while they were young growing up. was that an actual scientific study or from the back of one of Ray Comfort's tracts?

catherine: God created everything and everyone for His glory. Someone ought to tell an atheist this. I wander wonder if they would get angry about that, I mean, if someone told them. "Of course, I wouldn't care." I think the question was how to convert atheists, not how to make them angry, though that wouldn't make me angry, it would make me laugh.

Rebecca_D: I would ask how we all got here in the first place. Then I'd ask who do they run to when all hell breaks lose and it seems there is no way out. God is my refuge from the storms, he'll hold me, hide me, he would shelter and never deny me. Honestly, Rebecca, I don't know. Of course, I'm not a physicist. I'm also okay with not knowing things. There's lots of things I don't know.

Who do I run to when things get bad? Friends and family. God will hold, hide, shelter and never deny you? What about all the people he doesn't hold, hide, shelter and never deny? What about who are horribly killed, suffer from diseases are raped, lose loved ones, etc.? Does god just not love them as much as you?

jana: just ask them, "Who is Jesus Christ the one you mention when u get angry? I would like to know Him, can you tell me about Him?. Who is My God whom u so mention a lot in your speeches. I would also like to know Him. Okay, being christian doesn't give one the right to butcher the english language, and, that made no sense. i think jana is positing that if you've ever said "goddamnit" or "jesus christ!" in anger, that you must necessarily believe in god, which is just silly. curses are cultural.

Helen 5378:
I think that the strongest point, so to speak, to bring up to an Atheist is to tell them how very much that God loves them. I like to tell them that God knows exactly what they are thinking right at that moment, whereas I do not have a clue. That's quite the non sequitur. Hey, some guy you don't believe in knows what you're thinking and loves you! Oh, really? Who? Santa?

There is so much more, but we'll end with Tanya:
You should start with the begining, God is the reason they woke up this morning.How in bad times if they call on God, that he will make a way. Well, heck, that worked for me!

Taking the Crazy Train to Nutterville

crazy, religion, religious, jesus, miano, lawman, evangelical, evangelism, witness, testimony, god, christian, bible,
This guy lives in California:

Proclaiming the Law and the Gospel is not a right given to Christians by men. It is a command given to Christians by God. If you want to earn and exercise a right, go earn and exercise the right to die for Jesus Christ at the hands of the very people who insist you do not have the right to speak to them about the Way, the Truth, and the Life.

So, when did California start executing Christians for their belief? Yet again we have confirmation that what fundys want more than anything else is a return of the lions.

The Closest I'll Get

slacktivist, evangelical, evangelism, witness, christian, christianity, atheism, atheist, ray, comfort, fundy, jesus,
You know who gets me the closest to being Christian? Not because I believe or anything, but because I want to be more like him?

The Slacktivist.

I mention this because immediately after letting through a comment from a very angry Christian about my "post modernism*" and "intollerance" [sic], I read the Slactivist's latest post.

Ray Comfort and his cohorts stay up at night to think of new ways to insult and denigrate atheists, while the Slacktivist evangelizes with wit, wisdom and ultimately, kindness. The Slacktivist is, and you only need to read one post to see this, truly a good man. He truly cares for the homeless, the poor, the sick, the lonely. I imagine that if the Slacktivist were given three wishes, not a one of them would be selfish. He really would wish for world peace, and end to hunger, an end to disease.**

The Slacktivist is exactly what I imagined Jesus to be back when I believed.

Why do I mention this? Because his latest post is about exactly the form of evangelism Ray and others like him practice.

If you're worried about making friends then you'll wind up more concerned with what others think of you than you are with your duty and you won't be as single-mindedly focused as you need to be in witnessing at them. And let's face it, if you're at all concerned about how others perceive you, then you'll never find the courage to be as off-putting as this duty requires you to be. Treating others as friends, real or potential, involves treating them as subjects rather than how you ought to be treating them -- as objects of your evangelism. So stop acting like you're in some kind of popularity contest and get busy proving that you're not ashamed of the gospel.

That's not the most charitable paraphrase of this stock sermon, but it's accurate.

And anyway I'm not inclined to view this particular sermon charitably. It's pointless and ineffective, for one thing. It doesn't work. The poor souls subjected to some variation of this lecture week after week do not go forth to boldy proclaim the gospel in the way the speaker describes. And that's probably a good thing, too, since if they did that wouldn't work. It encourages a form -- and a spirit -- of evangelism that is far more likely to repel than to attract. It offers no motivation other than guilt, and guilt is just a lousy, lousy motivator. Anything we do because of guilt we do, by definition, begrudgingly. There are very few things one can do begrudgingly and still do well. Guilt also tends to produce a self-defensive resentment of those who provoke or remind us of it. You can see that dynamic in the hostility some people display toward the homeless. This sermon sometimes prompts a similar guiltily hostile form of evangelism.

Hostility and evangelism don't mix well.

Yeah, Slacktivist, I've noticed.

Anyway, since I apparently can't convince the fundys that calling me a fool, and railing about my post modernism and intollerance [sic], is very unlikely to convert me, maybe the words of an evangelical Christian will help.

*What is post modernism in this context? I can never tell.

**I would wish for myself not to be sick anymore, to be beautiful and for the Eagles to win the next Superbowl. Not necessarily in that order.

It Wasn't So Much the Post . . .

vera, doug, ray, comfort, religion, atheism, atheist, christian, christianity, witness, evangelical, evangelism, jesus, god, bible,
Ray Comfort is back from New Zealand, and his Raytards(tm) are back from . . . well, wherever it is they go when they're not making the world's most ludricrous comments. (I suspect insane asylums, or John Birch Society meetings.)

Ray's most recent post is nowhere near as amusing as the comments of some of his Raytards(tm), but I don't have room for all of them, so we'll confine ourselves to examining the work of Vera, of VeraandDoug.

This all begins with a comment by Steven J, he of the patience of 20, nay, 100 men.

Ray, you don't argue as though you're seriously trying to persuade us. You gratuitously insult us in petty ways, which is not normally considered an optimum approach for winning hearts and minds. But of course, that you insult us does not show that you're wrong.

Vera responds with:

Steven

Jesus offended people, Steven. (gratuitous overuse of a person's name is never a good sign.)In fact, I was thinking about that the other day. really? wow. The question was asked, "If Jesus were standing here, how would you react?" most christians would say how happy they would be by meeting their savior, but vera takes a slightly different tack. I was thinking that I probably would be offended by some of the things He might say such as my saying, "I'm going to first go bury my parents." what situation does she imagine her savior walking into? He says, "Let the dead bury their own dead." is jesus referencing zombies, or am i not reading this right? if the messiah is referencing zombies, maybe someone should clue him in to the fact that zombies are rarely ever known for burying the dead. eating the dead, yes. Or how about insinuating that I'm a dog. wtf?! Would I have the faith to say, "Yes, but even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from the Master's table." okay, I do know the verse here, but . . . oh forget it. The Bible says that the preaching of the gospel is an offense and foolishness to those who are perishing. wait for it . . . There isn't any way to rectify that because sin is the problem and sin has to be repented of. yup, vera just said right out that evangelism (Ray's stock and trade) is entirely pointless. will that stop her? of course not! There will never be a compromise on this....ever.

Vera then attempts to debate Steven J on evolution, which is a really good way to make yourself look stupid. And moving on:

Steven J (to Ray) You're self-indulgent, careless, and lazy in your arguments.

That wasn't very nice to say. You just said Jesus was offensive to people, Vera. Apparently, Steven J was just being Christlike. Is that not exactly what you claim that Ray does. Perhaps you are personifying your own faults onto Ray. People have a tendency to do this. Says the woman who regularly calls atheists "hateful sinners".

Steven J.: You can't count on everyone in your audience being as impressed by those traits as, say, Terry Burton is. If you're really trying to persuade us, then you ought to try much harder to actually understand the ideas you argue against. And if you're not trying to persuade us, assuming that it's entirely up to us (and not at all dependent on the arguments and evidence you produce) whether we believe you, then it's hard to see what connection your posting and preaching has to your alleged concern for us. I am terribly confused by this as well. Ray has to know, HAS TO KNOW, that this isn't working. I spent an entire day on his site reading posts and comments (do not try that at home, kids) and have yet to see one conversion. And you just know that if somebody did convert due to Ray's website, there'd be a freakin' parade. So, why does Ray do this?

There will never be a conciliation between us in that way. Then Why. Fucking. Bother. and Leave. Us. Alone. and Shut. The. Fuck. Up. We know that God created the heavens and the earth. good for you- what does that have to do with anything? More information is coming in every day to show how He did it. what information? All of it points to the biblical account. no, it doesn't, just ask Stev- oh, never mind. We know God because He set us free from sin. That's amazingly circular. And I bet you still sin. What about you? I don't think you have any idea what freedom is, but whatever. Vera

See, it's not just Ray that's good for a few laughs.

Expect to Be Accosted

evangelical, evangelism, witness, witnessing, christian, religion, god, jesus, miano

Tony Miano, a good friend of Ray Comfort's, has this advice for the fundys:



Depraved Indifference: Being morally culpable while acting with wanton disregard for the life of another. If you refuse to share the gospel with lost souls, then you are guilty as charged.



The "life" of another, Mr. Miano. Not the "afterlife" of another. Feel free to leave us alone.

The Dangers of Comfort

ray, comfort, evangelism, evangelical, witness, christian, jesus, god, bible, meyers, pharyngula

I have recently seen two examples of the danger of Ray Comfort and his antiatheist propaganda.



From a Comfort post unironically titled Atheist Pope, we get this comment from Its ALL About JESUS!!! (one grammatical error, two random capitalizations, and one instance exclamation point abuse in the screen name alone):



Dear 'Atheist Pope', I really got a good laugh when you said "you are aware that us atheists are generally more compassionate than Christians "



Sorry, I don't buy it. I've had too much experience with atheists in life and seen the death, and destruction they bring.



What am I talking about? I'm talking about atheists who KILL unborn babies, start bloody wars, ignore the starving, and take advantage of the poor.



I see disrespectful people who slander good Christian people, and run God's Holy Bible thru the mud. Your hearts are corrupt, and there is nothing good in you. You put on a good pretense but the core of your group is deceitful, hateful, and you are jealous of God's people. Turn away from your sins while you still can atheist!



Jesus Christ is the answer to your eternal salvation, not a curse word on your lips. Praying for you!



Psalm 14



For the director of music.



Of David.



1 The fool says in his heart, "There is no God." They are corrupt, their deeds are vile; there is no one who does good.



Can you feel it? The hate, just dripping off your screen? He despises me, and maybe you, and every other atheist/nonchristian on the planet. Hates us. With a white hot fury. And Ray just eggs him on. This asshat doesn't know me, or you, or any other atheist, for that matter, but he doesn't have to, does he? He can just go to Ray for confirmation of his hatred of people who dance only in Ray Comfort's mind*.



This may not seem so bad to you, this faceless screen name hating complete strangers, but it leads to what happened to PZ Meyers recently.



First, PZ gets this charming email:



I saw your criticism of Ray Comfort on Worldnetdaily.com. I believe exactly as Ray Comfort believes and when you call him an idiot and stupid, you're calling me an idiot and stupid.


I'd like nothing more than to break every tooth out of your head, one by one; then poke your fucking eyeballs out and shove them straight-up your tightly-puckered asshole.


Go fuck yourself, pinhead jerk.


James M. BakerIndianapolis, Indiana



Well, that's just . . . rude. It didn't stop there, however.



[James Baker] has sent me a few other emails (which I just trashed on sight), and now someone at the IP address 67.177.100.132 (which traces back to Shelbyville…Hi, Jim!) has attempted to subscribe me to a large body of gay and fetish porn. Who knew there were sites dedicated to just pictures of young boys' feet?



You know as well as I do that for some people it's no great distance from threatening emails and (attempted) abusive porning to a real life violent act. And Ray Comfort just eggs them on. To Ray Comfort, this is all fun and games.



Lecture me some more about morality, Ray.



*hat tip to Fannie!