Thursday, July 9, 2009

Romans 13:1-7

bible, atheism, atheist, democracy, constitution, god, godless
Watching fundys debate the real meaning of Romans 13:1-7 is more than a little amusing. The meaning of the passage is pretty clear: all earthly authority has god's blessing, no matter who it is or what they do, so obey. But, these people hate Obama and his librul gubment, and they really don't want to obey. They descend pretty quickly into interpreting the literal word of god or just dismissing it altogether.

The outlimitz can't quite reconcile his love of the 2nd Amendment with what the Bible actually says: I consider myself highly patriotic to the USA (not how the adjective "patriotic" works, but okay) and I am really, really furious about the nature of things that are being committed against us by those in high places. health care for everyone? stimulus jobs? it's insanity! As a red blooded American as opposed to what? i'm way out in left field with Ghandi and I still bleed red part of me wants to fight the powers that be and make my final stand. oh, dear. now we've descended into revolution porn. This feeling inside me grows stronger although I know fighting is not the answer. Last night I opened my bible and came to Romans 13:1-7.

1Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. 4For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience. 6This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God's servants, who give their full time to governing. 7Give everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.

So is this passage saying that Obama and his administration were put into power by God? seems like, don't it? From this passage I take that I should respect the powers that be and that I should pay my taxes et al don't use latin abbreviations if you don't understand them. you're looking for "etc."....but I am really curious on when one should fight for what they believe in or should one just sit back, pray, and hold the course? apparently not even fundys think prayer really does anything.

Can someone help me out regarding this passage as it pertains to my post?Much appreciated and God bless!

HisBride (could someone explain her avatar to me?): Yeah, we've all had to look at that since the election. Yes, God allowed Mr. Obama i'm pretty sure you mean "President Obama" to be president of the US. Let's face it, we've fallen so far from anything remotely resembling a Christian community or country. you can't fall away from something you never were. All we have to do is read the scriptures and see that God has often allowed corrupt leaders. oh, yes, he has. In fact, when the Letter to the Romans was written, it was a very difficult time for Christians. We are no different.

Right now, we pray for God's children and God's will. But I know that if push came to shove and my rights as an American citizen were violated, I would have a hard time being passive. praying's okay, until they take away my guns. God will show us. I know that isn't much comfort, but we must stay close to the Lord in prayer and the study of His Word. He will show us as the days get darker what we must do. He will not let us down. We will certainly be walking more and more by faith!

grayling seems to have missed the point: The pilgrims left England because of the oppression from the Church of England. that's debateable. Our founders and colonists fought against the British Empire for freedom of religion no, they didn't and against taxation without representation that i'll buy. The founders understood that rights are not given by man but by God. debating the religion of the founders is a waste of time, but they were not today's evangelical christians. jefferson's bible was not a bible any fundy would recognize. I've always held the belief that we should stand up for our constitution and not allow it to be trampled on through unconstitutional laws. uh-huh. so, romans 13:1-7 is as meaningless to you as it is to me?

grapplewithgod actually calls grayling on it: Are you saying pilgrims actions supersede biblical commands because you benefit from the outcome?

thechef71 has found the loophole! I think it means to submit to Godly authority. Surely the Lord would not wish us to submit to Hitler for instance. you are discussing the same omnipotent being that allowed hitler to torture and kill 6 million of its "chosen people", right? If we see something is evil in our society we should speak out against it. The same goes for our churches many of which have been very silent considering our slide as a Nation for many years. Our freedom is also a gift from God shall we give it away? Never. We should stand against evil and tyranny to the point where God must remove the Church for Jesus to return. That is my goal my plan. you're planning on forcing god's hand? good luck with that. What say you?

grapplewithgod is just too knowledgeable to be in this conversation: Paul wrote what he wrote just before Nero began the great persecution of the church. Since scripture is divinely inspired, it's not a very strong argument to say "surely God would not wish..." since he wished to instruct the church regarding this knowing full well Nero was on the throne.

dpetty is still looking for that loophole: God also allows the Devil to do his dirty work too so I have a real issue following the Great Usurper and his minions. if it's god's dirty work, then by following the devil, aren't you following god?
. . .
Well what I was trying to say is God sometimes allows the Devil to work in order to bring a person or even a nation to there knees so they return to God. so, why would you want to fuck that up? The current crop of elected officials and appointees for the most part seem to be of a very Liberal bent it's all relative. and what I have seen so far take a dim view of anyone who is a Christian. yes, democrats despise christians. it's true. So in saying all that I am speculating maybe we are being led by people who are not on the side of God? Is it possible that is the case? There is a an! old saying "You will know them by their works" and what I am seeing so far is these guys do not seem to be on the side of God. yeah, i think i've already established that democrats are all satan worshippers, right? what, i didn't tell you that?

beagler's had it with this god stuff: Who or more accurately, what is the ruling authority in this country?It is NOT those elected to office. The real authority is the Constitution itself. When those elected to represent us are refusing to be bound by the Constitution, it is they who are in rebellion, and that rebellion needs to be put down by We The People. there is so much wrong with that, i'm not sure where to begin.

dpetty's on board: I do think soon we will all have to make a choice on what side we fall as a 2nd American revolution is at hand. yeah, revolutions are all fun and stuff! what's that, Iran? oh, they're not? what?! people die? that doesn't sound fun at all!

mrsb seems to live in some alternate reality: I don't know what to think about looking at the constitution as our authority rather than elected officials. Paul was referring to people in authority over us. probably because he wrote that a good millenium before the Magna Carta and about 1700 years before the Constitution was written. just a thought. Those people can never be put in place of God - like some are apt to do today. But they are in position of authority whether we like it or not. Whether they are godly or not. God has raised up many rulers over the centuries that were not godly - for His purposes.

William Tyndale did the work of God against the wishes of the church of England and King Henry VIII. wait, are you supposed to obey authority or not? When he was caught he was burned at the stake because he would not recant. His dying words were a prayer to God, "Lord, open the King of England's eyes!" Now...I'm looking back to what someone did before us. well, yes. But I believe he was following scripture in doing what he did. you mean the scripture that says to obey earthly authority? The Pilgrims - Puritans and Separatists, to be more specific what other Pilgrims were there?- left Europe to come to America and felt led by God to come here. Maybe they were. But, where can we go? There is no free America to flee to. It's gone. that's right. you don't even have a message board to exercise the first amendment rights you don't have anymore- wait, what?

the outlimitz seems to have conflated the constitution and the bible: The Constitution was divinely inspired by God was it not? no. what are you talking about? With that in mind we should stand up for what we believe in like:1. Freedom of Religion freedom of religion directly opposes what god commands in the bible, you know, the first commandment? 2. Freedom of Speech again, directly opposes what god commands 3. Right to a Well Armed Militia okay, god did seem to be in favor of the killing And so on and so forth. Conversely, we are to remain subject to the powers that be, even if that means persecution. Any further thoughts? Am I on the right course here? no.

christina is holding firm to the belief that you can read the bible literally and interpret here and there: In a nutshell, we are to obey the powers that be unless they are in direct opposition to God's Word. just as a reminder, Romans 13:1 - Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. absolutely nothing about "unless they are in direct opposition to god's word. If the government started closing down churches and telling Christians they couldn't read their Bible what planet is this happening on?.....well we already know what the Lord has to say about fellowshipping and congregating with fellow believers as well as how we are to be in His Word so if the government were to try to implement some law to ban this we would be within our rights to disobey the government not according to Romans 13:1.....however.....taxes or freedom of speech are not things we are to fight against um, wouldn't you need freedom of speech to talk about god and his word?....render to the Lord what is the Lord's and render to Caesar what is Caesar's...I don't see any percentage that tells us how much to render to Caesar so it is whatever the government puts it at regardless of how fair or unfair it is. God said for us to obey (as long as it doesn't go against HIM) so we must obey, regardless of how fair it is or not. you know, unless you decide you don't want to.

ShowUsTheFather has a loophole for rendering unto Caesar: How do you deal with the idea that taxes are providing funding for abortions? Not just here, but overseas? Does God want people to stand against that?Obviously we vote for those who stand against it, but what about boycotting it? and what about my taxes that go to funding faith based initiatives? betcha she'd throw a hissy fit if i said i wasn't going to pay that portion of my taxes.

This proves at least one thing: even people who swear they believe the bible is the literal word of god interpret it to their own liking.


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  2. This group of Christians needs a transfusion of grey matter. Goodness gracious!

    PRESIDENT Obama is oppressing them and acting just like HItler. Who knew?

  3. What part of "must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God" are they finding the ability to completely ignore? It is saying, explicitly, that the governing authorities have been chosen by God (which, yes, includes Hitler...that's not a counter-argument, that's a horrible implication). The only way that they've managed to cartwheel out of that pickle is by assuming that authority needs to be Godly in order to be established by God, which is 1. a subjective assessment on their part and 2. not at all what the passage is saying since the fact that they have authority is taken as evidence in of itself that the authority figure is ordained by God. And, as another person points out, it is explicitly referring to people, so sneaking under by making the Constitution as the authority is both wrong by the details of the passage and irrelevant, because Obama isn't going against anything in it!

    I know, it must be devastating for them to have to mesh that with a literal reading of the Bible, their disdain for the current administration, the knowledge that our "religious" forefathers had to do such a rebellion against divinely instated authorities to even form our nation, and the knowledge that cruel and oppressive dictators exist. Well, I guess we're gonna have to chalk up another point for Evil God.


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