Tuesday, January 25, 2011

If It's not in Your Uterus, You Don't Get Decision Making Powers

I have heard this argument* (though not so chock full of "execution" and "murder") in real life: Men should have as much say in the decision whether or not to abort as women do. After all, it's half their kid, right?

Bullshit. Bullfuckingshit**.

You know why men don't get say in the decision to have an abortion (unless the woman wants to give him say, the law doesn't)? Because it's not his body that will be in use for the gestation and delivery, that's why. I would actually have no problem with the man having veto power if we were able to then transfer the fetus from the woman's body to his body. If we had that ability, I'd be totally okay with men being able to decide whether or not a woman has an abortion. I also guarantee that not too many men would be voicing opinions once we got that technology.

Look at it this way. You have a choice, right now, to decide whether or not to donate a kidney to a person with End Stage Renal Disease. Right now. Kidneys don't have to match on too many factors, and there are so many people with ESRD I could almost guarantee you that someone needs one of your kidneys. I don't think you're selfish for not doing so. There are a lot of good reasons not to. However, I'm sure if we left the decision up to someone else, say that dying person's husband or daughter, the decision would be a little different.

So, no, until it is the man's body that will be used for the gestational adventure, he has no say.



Note: It's not that Forever in Hell has become an All Abortion, All the Damn Time! blog, it's that the anniversary of Roe v. Wade was Sunday, so my google reader is chock full of obnoxious prolife posts. Also, January tends to be a dead zone in atheist bashing. It doesn't really pick up until a few weeks before Easter.



*Related to today's post here.

**You know what I don't get? Why are words like "fuck" and "bullshit" shocking and the sign of a lazy mind, but using words like "execution" and "murder" 73,000 times in one post is totally okay and civilized? It's like parents who are totally okay with their kid seeing unlimited violence in a movie, but one nipple requires the intervention of Congress.

10 comments:

  1. While I agree with all this, here's what I wonder:

    Let's say I impregnate a woman. She chooses to keep it (after all, it *is* her choice). Once she expels the child (for, after birth, it is a child) suddenly the law compels me (as the father) to be responsible for it. Am I wrong there?

    Shouldn't there be some sort of safety net there? If I (as the male) want it aborted, but the female wants to keep it, why should I necessarily be responsible for the result? (Or is there already a safety net? I'm lucky enough to be 100% sterile, so these laws haven't had much impact on my life)

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  2. I would say no, in that I assume you are aware that sex can lead to babies and that babies need stuff like food and shelter.

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  3. "Shouldn't there be some sort of safety net there?"

    I think your safety net would be called "not having sex with a fertile woman."

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  4. "So, no, until it is the man's body that will be used for the gestational adventure, he has no say."

    Nonsense in my opinion. He definitely has a say, given his role in the creation of the fetus, and the fact that he will be jointly responsible for the child.

    Since the fetus resides in the woman's body, I agree that the woman should have the final decision as to whether she terminates the pregnancy. But to say that the man should have no say whatsoever is unreasonable.

    "I think your safety net would be called "not having sex with a fertile woman.""

    That's pretty simplistic. What if the woman decides she wants a baby, lies to the guy and tells him she's on birth control?

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  5. dude, do not pull out MRA arguments here. that "lying about birth control" bullshit rarely happens. far more often, male abusers sabotage their partners' birth control in order to increase their control over them.

    also, no birth control is 100%. it fails. so, by having sex, you are implicitly consenting to unintentional pregnancy. if your partner chooses to carry to term, that's still your baby, whether you planned on it or not, and it's your responsibility.

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  6. "dude, do not pull out MRA arguments here.

    When I argue, my arguments are my own. That's why I'm arguing.

    "that "lying about birth control" bullshit rarely happens"

    I'm not sure how rare it is, but whether it is or not, it is certainly possible. People do all sorts of strange things for various reasons.

    ". far more often, male abusers sabotage their partners' birth control in order to increase their control over them.""

    Maybe, but that's irrelevant to my point since I wasn't addressing what happens if a man does something unethical. In that case I think the man should forfeit his right to have any involvement in the decision-making about the pregnancy because of his actions.

    "no birth control is 100%. it fails. so, by having sex, you are implicitly consenting to unintentional pregnancy. "

    I wouldn't put it that way. I'd say that there is always at least a slight risk that pregnancy could occur. But if you are actively trying to prevent pregnancy, by definition you do not want a pregnancy to occur.

    "if your partner chooses to carry to term, that's still your baby, whether you planned on it or not, and it's your responsibility."

    Basically what you appear to be arguing is that the man should get no input into whether or not a pregnancy which he was obviously a part of should be terminated. Yet at the same time if a pregnancy occurs which he didn't want, and thought he & or she had actively taken steps to prevent, then he gets full responsibility. There's something wrong with that picture.

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  7. i have a SIMPLE solution for men who don't want to get a women pregnant.

    [i COULD say "vasectomy" but that's mean]

    bring your OWN condoms.

    i'll tell you true - i ALWAYS used both a hormonal BC and condoms. and i refused to have sex with a guy who didn't have his OWN condoms [although if we used his, spermicide was the rule]


    if you think it may happen that a woman will lie to you about BC, use your own BC. it continues to be bullshit that women are the ones with most "responsibility" for BC, since so many men appear to be scared that the women they fuck will "lie and get pregnant"



    jesus. it's idiotic. USE A FUCKING CONDOM.

    [or get a vasectomy]

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  8. "'it continues to be bullshit that women are the ones with most "responsibility" for BC,"

    That's illogical. If you accept that a woman has the ultimate decision over what to do with a pregnancy, because the pregnancy occurs within her own body, it doesn't make any sense to then claim that a women doesn't have the most responsibility for birth control. Why would someone have less responsibility for controlling what might happen inside her own body?

    One of the main reasons I became pro-choice was that I started trying to think about how I would see the issue if I were a woman, and someone were trying to dictate to me what I could and could not do inside my own body. From the same perspective, if I were female and didn't want to become pregnant -- something that would obviously affect me far more than the man -- I would certainly feel that I had the primary responsibility for protecting my own body from an unwanted pregnancy.

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  9. UNNR -

    you cannot seperate one clause of a sentence like that. what i said - and i stand by it - is that if men are so fucking scared that women are going to lie about BC, it's STUPID to INSIST that WOMEN be the only ones responsible.

    and i'll keep fucking saying it.

    i'm NOT saying men have "primary responsibility to ensure no women ever get pregnant" - i'm saying if a man that THAT fucking "worried" that the woman he's sleeping with is going to get pregnant, then he needs to fucking TAKE RESPONSIBILITY for what he wants - or, i guess specifically, what he DOESN'T want.

    i'm just really sick of this whole BS "what if she deliberately deceives me and gets pregnant and i'm STUCK" argument. there's a very fucking simple solution.

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  10. Dude if you're worried that a woman is going to trap you into becoming a father - don't have sex.

    Forcing abortion or pregnancy on a woman is fucked up. Her body - her choice.

    If you want to run away from your responsibilities once a child is born then you can probably still do that. Lots of men get away with not financially or emotionally supporting their children. If you want to be a prick then be a prick. Chances are there will be people who will pat you on the back when you sprout your ridiculous MRA bullshit rants.

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Comments are for you guys, not for me. Say what you will. Don't feel compelled to stay on topic, I enjoy it when comments enter Tangentville or veer off into Non Sequitur Town. Just keep it polite, okay?

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